Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha

[Philosophypsych]

I just jumped into this conversation now, but I definitely think you're making some good points. The taboo is definitely misunderstood, and study of kaballah is largely ignored by most Jews.

If you're writing this, you probably read it already, but if you haven't, definitely read aryeh kaplan's Jewish Meditation, and then Meditation and the Bible. (I personally haven't read the third one, but you can give it a try if you're committed to this.) It's a shame he's not around anymore, but there are definitely contemporaries who can help you with Kabbalah. I read one of Rabbi Dov Ber Pinson's books and it was amazing (even though I'm not chabad).

(As for trying DMT, I definitely wouldn't look at it as a religious experience, but certainly a discovery experience, possibly spiritual.
It definitely sounds exciting, perhaps scary, and definitely crazy. Seems like most of the people here are staunchly against it, but I'm sure that we're all curious to hear your experiences if you do try it. That'll make for some TR.)

I have bought every one of Aryeh Kaplans stuff, including the practical guide to jewish meditation, and Meditation and kabbalah, and inner Space, he was truly a genius with a remarkable talent.
BTW, most people dont know but Aryeh kaplan wrote only 1 short safer/kuntrus in HEBREW on Kabbalah/machshavah on primarily tzimtzum and and the Yediah/Bechirah paradox every other one of his 50+ books are english, this hasnt been in print or in circulation for over 20 years, have never seen the actual safer anywhere, but I obtained a pdf file and went through it, it`s called Moreh Ohr, if anyones intrested lmk I can share the file.

[Philosophypsych]

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what kabala actually is, what the point of it is, and who is actually "supposed to learn it."

Well I`m more then happy to debate it with you, although my views are in line with all the mainsteam shitos (rather then say for example, the abraham abulafian views) as I have spent a significant amount of time studying it, and I doubt you can say the same, but dont believe you know what my views are in the first place, so lets hear what my never stated views are, in regards to what kabala is, and what the point of it is, then lets see why its wrong and then please enlighten us with the/your truth?

BTW in case your intrested to hear in just a few words what the point of kabala is, the answer is the same as the other parts of torah in the sense that you can be like chasidim who would channel the kabbalah directly into how it relates to their avodas hashem, theres the ramchal that its a way of understanding hashems hanhagah of the briyah, you can use it to understand the real meaning of tfillah as im sure you know the entire davening and pesukei dzimrah was composed based on kabbalistic ideas, (Pesukei dzimra is all just about cutting out the klipos to pave a path for your actual tfilah to ascend undeterred etc..) their is no one point to any other part of torah either. Hafuch va Vhafuch va Dkulah Buh! right??

[JuryDuty]

I have bought every one of Aryeh Kaplans stuff, including the practical guide to jewish meditation, and Meditation and kabbalah, and inner Space, he was truly a genius with a remarkable talent.
BTW, most people dont know but Aryeh kaplan wrote only 1 short safer/kuntrus in HEBREW on Kabbalah/machshavah on primarily tzimtzum and and the Yediah/Bechirah paradox every other one of his 50+ books are english, this hasnt been in print or in circulation for over 20 years, have never seen the actual safer anywhere, but I obtained a pdf file and went through it, it`s called Moreh Ohr, if anyones intrested lmk I can share the file.

Did you read the book Meditation and the Bible?

If you do plan on any spiritual experience outside of Judaism, I would recommend seriously practicing meditation and visualization techniques described by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan an others.

Only if you've been serious In a regiment in these (not just studying Kabbalah, but experiencing Jewish spirituality) and still want more would I recommend going to other places.

Specifically I would recommend (as an introduction) visions of a compassionate world by Menachem ekstien and then Visualization and imagery by Rabbi dov ber pinson.

Your debates about the concepts of Kabbalah is a different discussion to actually doing DMT. That's why I believe that it's important to have spiritual Jewish experiences first, putting aside a scholarly study in Kabbalah.

All in all, I'm still interested in what you would think if you do go ahead with it... It's just something that I wouldn't go for at this time.

[chief_mag]

Your debates about the concepts of Kabbalah is a different discussion to actually doing DMT. That's why I believe that it's important to have spiritual Jewish experiences first, putting aside a scholarly study in Kabbalah.

+1
There's a response from the Lubavitcher Rebbe regarding a similar question, not pro the concept of using external influences to further the study of Kaballa & chassidus. I can't find it right now, so I won't (mis)quote it.

[Philosophypsych]

Did you read the book Meditation and the Bible?

If you do plan on any spiritual experience outside of Judaism, I would recommend seriously practicing meditation and visualization techniques described by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan an others.

Only if you've been serious In a regiment in these (not just studying Kabbalah, but experiencing Jewish spirituality) and still want more would I recommend going to other places.

Specifically I would recommend (as an introduction) visions of a compassionate world by Menachem ekstien and then Visualization and imagery by Rabbi dov ber pinson.

Your debates about the concepts of Kabbalah is a different discussion to actually doing DMT. That's why I believe that it's important to have spiritual Jewish experiences first, putting aside a scholarly study in Kabbalah.

All in all, I'm still interested in what you would think if you do go ahead with it... It's just something that I wouldn't go for at this time.

I have it's sitting on the table near my bed, I've read every one of his books more then just once, and don't get me wrong I'm not looking for other spiritualities whatsoever, I'm fully grounded in my yiddishkeit completely, spiritually and philosophically, I'm not actively persuing anything outside yiddishkeit, just meditation which obviously we are both aware is a very Jewish concept as portrayed so clearly by Aryeh Kaplan.
BUT I would be lying if I told you at the end of the day the idea to ACTUALLY have a transcdental experience not a acid trip but a ligit out of body experience the likes of which ppl who almost die attest too (which can be induced at DMT clinic) is still something that excites and boggles my mind to no end, and although it's not practical I keep thinking to myself that one day when I pass through a country that happens to have such clinics, I aught to try for myself just once!
Maybe you've reached the advanced levels of meditation and can reach a transcdental state on your own, if, so lucky you!
But I have not mastered that yet, and until then, this idea of having a real life truly non-physical and unexplainable purely spiritual experience is something I envy!
Something about going through life the way it is, even the best parts of it, even an elated feeling of an intense Torah study session, or a real prayer done with full devotion, to me is still all considered mundane in comparison.
What should I do, It's just some sort of yearning feeling for something Devine and truly spiritual, not so easy to put into words I guess...
But no worries I'm not straying and going outside the religion I am totally grounded in my Judaism.

[Philosophypsych]

+1
There's a response from the Lubavitcher Rebbe regarding a similar question, not pro the concept of using external influences to further the study of Kaballa & chassidus. I can't find it right now, so I won't (mis)quote it.

I agree. And the original post about wanting to try DMT to have such an experience once, was a long time ago, now I was just discussing the study of kabbla but not that I believe the study of Kabbalah should be along with these foreign influences at all, I agree with what your saying 100% and the quote from the lubavitcher rabbi might have been mentioned quoted actually way back when this article was posted, a comment on the first page or two I believe.

[Philosophypsych]

Did you read the book Meditation and the Bible?

If you do plan on any spiritual experience outside of Judaism, I would recommend seriously practicing meditation and visualization techniques described by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan an others.

Only if you've been serious In a regiment in these (not just studying Kabbalah, but experiencing Jewish spirituality) and still want more would I recommend going to other places.

Specifically I would recommend (as an introduction) visions of a compassionate world by Menachem ekstien and then Visualization and imagery by Rabbi dov ber pinson.

Your debates about the concepts of Kabbalah is a different discussion to actually doing DMT. That's why I believe that it's important to have spiritual Jewish experiences first, putting aside a scholarly study in Kabbalah.

All in all, I'm still interested in what you would think if you do go ahead with it... It's just something that I wouldn't go for at this time.

U deff seem to have researched and studied meditation perhaps still practicing as well, I'd love to hear more honestly...

[chief_mag]

I agree with what your saying 100% and the quote from the lubavitcher rabbi might have been mentioned quoted actually way back when this article was posted, a comment on the first page or two I believe.

See them now.

[JuryDuty]

U deff seem to have researched and studied meditation perhaps still practicing as well, I'd love to hear more honestly...

I think you probably read more aryeh Kaplan books and about Kabbalah in general. Personally, I feel like most of Kabbalah is well over my head. I do appreciate what I understand and I'm very into meditation, mindfulness, and visualization.

That being said, Rabbi Kaplans books Jewish Meditation and Meditation and the Bible we're game changers for me.
On the practical side, I guess what originally piqued my interest was The Possible You (a seminar by Rabbi Yom Tov Glaser, pricey) which introduced me to breathing methods.
I later had a "mussar Seder" reading visions of a compassionate world. I never really got to be more than a beginner, but it was quite amazing. Im still interested in alternative methods, but anything drug-induced is honestly scary to me. (As a side note I found Ram Dass's story of a therapist who experimented with LSD to be fascinating.)

For now, when I am not in a rush, I use parts of tefillah as a meditative practice, and it makes my davening especially meaningful. I actually have entire notebooks of new pshatim in pesukim and tefillah just from these practices.
I stress tefillah to anyone who is interested in these types of things. (Hence the recommendation to reread rabbi Kaplans Jewish Meditation.) Some of my best tefillos were byechidus because I really had a chance to experience it, something that is kinda hard with a regular quick-ish minyan. (I spoke with rabbanim about davening byechidus for this purpose and got some really interesting perspectives.) For now, this is where my experiences are, although I wish I could do more. This thread inspired me to crack open Jewish Meditation again, so who knows

[JuryDuty]

Oh, and my good friend is a mindfulness expert and a very open minded and thought out Jew, so I consult with him for any questions I have

[Suave]

I have it's sitting on the table near my bed, I've read every one of his books more then just once, and don't get me wrong I'm not looking for other spiritualities whatsoever, I'm fully grounded in my yiddishkeit completely, spiritually and philosophically, I'm not actively persuing anything outside yiddishkeit, just meditation which obviously we are both aware is a very Jewish concept as portrayed so clearly by Aryeh Kaplan.
BUT I would be lying if I told you at the end of the day the idea to ACTUALLY have a transcdental experience not a acid trip but a ligit out of body experience the likes of which ppl who almost die attest too (which can be induced at DMT clinic) is still something that excites and boggles my mind to no end, and although it's not practical I keep thinking to myself that one day when I pass through a country that happens to have such clinics, I aught to try for myself just once!
Maybe you've reached the advanced levels of meditation and can reach a transcdental state on your own, if, so lucky you!
But I have not mastered that yet, and until then, this idea of having a real life truly non-physical and unexplainable purely spiritual experience is something I envy!
Something about going through life the way it is, even the best parts of it, even an elated feeling of an intense Torah study session, or a real prayer done with full devotion, to me is still all considered mundane in comparison.
What should I do, It's just some sort of yearning feeling for something Devine and truly spiritual, not so easy to put into words I guess...
But no worries I'm not straying and going outside the religion I am totally grounded in my Judaism.

I 'know someone' who has tried large doses of LSD, Mushrooms, Ahuywasca, MDMA and other psychedelics, psychotropics, nootropics as well as alternative healing methods... 'he' has had out of body experiences, transcended levels and had life changing revelations....all in search for a closer relationship with hashem and stronger emunah...while I admit that it has made 'him' a better person in general, I cannot say that it made 'him' a better Jew.

My advice, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you are a true believer and are constantly working on reaching higher levels and improving yourself, you have no need to search for alternative methods. Everything you need is in torah/kabbalah. Want something divine? be experiential on shabbos. Read R' Chaim Miller's translation of Kegavna (Raza D'Shabbos). Learn some Tanya, Likutei Moharan, the Bahir, Zohar, etc.

[Joe4007]

Wow! That's something I'd really want to read

+100

[Philosophypsych]

I 'know someone' who has tried large doses of LSD, Mushrooms, Ahuywasca, MDMA and other psychedelics, psychotropics, nootropics as well as alternative healing methods... 'he' has had out of body experiences, transcended levels and had life changing revelations....all in search for a closer relationship with hashem and stronger emunah...while I admit that it has made 'him' a better person in general, I cannot say that it made 'him' a better Jew.

My advice, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you are a true believer and are constantly working on reaching higher levels and improving yourself, you have no need to search for alternative methods. Everything you need is in torah/kabbalah. Want something divine? be experiential on shabbos. Read R' Chaim Miller's translation of Kegavna (Raza D'Shabbos). Learn some Tanya, Likutei Moharan, the Bahir, Zohar, etc.

Very interesting, I either do, or have learned all the seforim you mentioned plus many others in that category, Leshem, Mishnas Chasidim, Shefa tal, Pardes Rimonim etc on a daily basis, and although, yes, you have a point, that you can experience joy in your shabbos or avodas hashem, I just think it`s inaccurate to label it as a transcending experience, (As in a near death or out of body etc where it`s clearly non physical) so although you may get to an elevated state of happiness, perhaps even ecstatic (Which I believe is not connected to spirituality per se in any way, since one can excite themselves about whatever it is he may choose, say Art, or Math etc, but just because you choose to excite yourself in regards to shabbos, that would not label your joy as a spiritual transcending phenomenon, IMHO) , but there is a whole other concept of experiencing the devine either through Advanced Meditation or with psychoactives, I dont mean to say I want to start doing drugs, I never have and never will (Be"h) I meant as a one time thing to try Ayahusca/DMT as a one time experience to see what a real spiritual experience feels like is just very appealing to me, and was curious if anyone had anything to share from either a personal experience or their thoughts about it...
Take care!

[Philosophypsych]

I spent some time in the Amazon Jungle last year and was seriously considering writing a TR but I feel a big part of the audience here is not 'conscious' enough to hear me out.

As a side note, I met a (semi famous) Native Indian Chief who told me that he led a peyote ceremony for a 'group of rabbis' from LA...

Seems like the audience is perhaps a bit more "conscious" then you think and are genuinely interested in hearing more!
How many comments will it take for you to reconsider?!

[Zalc]

to try Ayahusca/DMT as a one time experience to see what a real spiritual experience feels like

Who is deciding that this is a "real" experience? Yourself? Your Yetzer Horah?

That sounds like real slippery slope, spiritually.

It may also be wide open door for more/different substance abuse/dependency in the future, especially as you have not experienced them yet, and this desire that you have to "just try" DMT can just as easily shift to something else C"V.

The Yetzer is VERY good at finding just the right way to "get" to you:

https://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/hayomyom.asp?tdate=06%2F15%2F2020

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15469&st=&pgnum=84&hilite=