Author Topic: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha  (Read 26431 times)

Offline JuryDuty

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1106
  • Total likes: 227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2020, 08:38:41 PM »
I think I made an objective argument upthread why it's illogical that these substances can provide any actual spirituality

Whether or not your argument is true, it's a bold (and slightly offensive) claim to say that it's coming from taaveh.

Unless you say everything we do is somewhat coming from our taavehs...
Jury Duty: Nothing to do there but chill and write a TR. Kinda like the beach but missing the view and ocean breeze.

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4255
  • Total likes: 812
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2020, 08:58:52 PM »
Whether or not your argument is true, it's a bold (and slightly offensive) claim to say that it's coming from taaveh.

Unless you say everything we do is somewhat coming from our taavehs...
where it's coming from was @AsherO's comment. I argued where it's going. noplace beyond a nice dream

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30535
  • Total likes: 7832
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2020, 09:55:06 PM »
What's bothering you about the subject, that`s making you have these suspicions?

The only thing that bothers me is that you’re trying trying to suggest this is a tool to help you serve god better. Outside of that, have a safe trip and enjoy.
100% of Likes will be donated to support our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael

Offline Rick Strassman

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2020
  • Posts: 1
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2020, 10:24:59 PM »
One is not asleep or in coma during a psychedelic drug experience. What goes on around you determines the nature of your experience, as does your own preparation, intent, how you manage the effects, your state of mind at the time, and so on.

There are therapeutic effects of psychedelics; e.g., treating depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, addictions (alcohol, tobacco, opiates). Explanatory models gets slippery, though. Some believe that "spiritual" experiences brought on by psychedelics are curative, whereas less theological models posit a enhancement of mainstream therapeutic processes, such as  increased contact with emotions.

More slippery are claims that psychedelics "enhance spiritual growth," like meditation practice; or somehow make people "more spiritual." I know of a Jewish congregation that uses DMT-containing ayahuasca during Shabbat services on Friday evenings to increase their concentration, visualization, emotional involvement of their davening.

What is suspicious about my contributing to this thread? I'm neither supporting nor rebuking OP. I'm trying to enlarge the discussion because I've studied it for so long, performed hands-on clinical research with these drugs, and worked hard to understand how psychedelics may contribute to explicating the metaphysics of prophecy.

Offline JuryDuty

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1106
  • Total likes: 227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2020, 10:28:50 PM »
Thank you Dr. Strassman for your professional perspective.
And thank you mods for reopening and cleaning up the thread to focus on the relevant discussions.
Jury Duty: Nothing to do there but chill and write a TR. Kinda like the beach but missing the view and ocean breeze.

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2552
  • Total likes: 543
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2020, 12:44:10 AM »
One is not asleep or in coma during a psychedelic drug experience. What goes on around you determines the nature of your experience, as does your own preparation, intent, how you manage the effects, your state of mind at the time, and so on.

There are therapeutic effects of psychedelics; e.g., treating depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, addictions (alcohol, tobacco, opiates). Explanatory models gets slippery, though. Some believe that "spiritual" experiences brought on by psychedelics are curative, whereas less theological models posit a enhancement of mainstream therapeutic processes, such as  increased contact with emotions.

More slippery are claims that psychedelics "enhance spiritual growth," like meditation practice; or somehow make people "more spiritual." I know of a Jewish congregation that uses DMT-containing ayahuasca during Shabbat services on Friday evenings to increase their concentration, visualization, emotional involvement of their davening.

What is suspicious about my contributing to this thread? I'm neither supporting nor rebuking OP. I'm trying to enlarge the discussion because I've studied it for so long, performed hands-on clinical research with these drugs, and worked hard to understand how psychedelics may contribute to explicating the metaphysics of prophecy.

Lehavdil, was Just watching the Netflix documentary world war II in color

They say that the German soldiers were taking the equivalent of crystal meth.

Simcha gottleib could shed much on this subject.


Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2552
  • Total likes: 543
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2020, 12:47:14 AM »
I'm always looking for a good Shabbat. Where do you live?

Shushan 2

Online skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3810
  • Total likes: 826
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2020, 11:05:49 AM »
Lehavdil, was Just watching the Netflix documentary world war II in color

They say that the German soldiers were taking the equivalent of crystal meth.

Simcha gottleib could shed much on this subject.
Those were amphetamines, which aren't necessarily hallucinogens
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen
Although hallucinations are a common symptom of amphetamine psychosis, amphetamines are not considered hallucinogens as they are not a primary effect of the drugs themselves. While hallucinations can occur when abusing stimulants, the nature of stimulant psychosis is not unlike delirium.

Re WWII, everyone used them in some capacity, but no one as much as the Nazis. Each part of their military had a different nickname for them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substituted_amphetamines#Military_use

Offline Eliyohu

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 1003
  • Total likes: 83
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #88 on: January 22, 2020, 10:32:36 PM »
Is Ayahuasca, the same thing being discussed here?
I was just speaking to someone who asked R Dovid Fienstien if it's Avoda Zara, which he said he's not familiar with it. However R Heinman was familiar with it and told him it's not..
The reasoning iiuc is that a root of a plant can't become Assur and also those who worship it are worshipping the spirit/snake behind it not the actual plant

Offline enwhycee

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Posts: 371
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: BNA
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #89 on: January 22, 2020, 11:39:05 PM »
Is Ayahuasca, the same thing being discussed here?

those who worship it are worshipping the spirit/snake behind it not the actual plant

FACT

Let’s go ahead and close this thread now.

Offline johnshek

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 129
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2020, 02:03:43 AM »
The weird side of the internet comes to DDF...

Offline yeshiva guy

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: jerusalem
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #91 on: December 16, 2021, 06:24:04 AM »
it's important to take DMT orany other psychedelic in the safest most supportive possible environment. They open you up to all kinds of influences, some good, some bad. You would want to be supervised by someone you know and trust, someone who won't consciously or unconsciously be working against your own beliefs and aspirations. This can happen within a medical therapeutic setting, as well as in a more overtly religious context, such as the shamanic or syncretic Latin American settings.
hello , i am looking to take ayahuasca  or magic mushrooms to treat my depression , however the  retreats  that have this treatment has shamans (religious guides) that make pagan rituals on the medicine so it makes it impossible for religious jews to attend do you you have any suggestions?
p.s i tried ketamine and pharmaceuticals in the usa already nothing works

Offline yeshiva guy

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: jerusalem
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2021, 06:25:23 AM »
I'm assuming most of you don't know too much about Dimeththyltryptamine, better known as DMT, but I'm hoping their are some people who are familiar and might be able to add their opinions on the matter.
To cut straight to the point, I was considering going on a vacation to Australia where they have licensed regulated clinics where one can have a DMT experience.
Is their ANY reason to think that this can possibly be problematic according to halacha?
From what I understand their are tribes that use DMT in their rituals but I don't see why that would make it assur being that this would not involve any religious ritual and would be conducted in a private clinic, so if certain religious groups used alcohol I find it hard to believe that it would render alcohol assur to use...
Anyone hear anything specific in regards to this subject?








(P.s. The DMT expierance is a purely spiritual one, and in today's day and age with almost complete hester panim, that even a "Dybbuk" was known to be a normal occurrence is no longer happening, it is as if hashem specifically does not want any supernatural phenomenon to be occurring as to amplify the hastaras panim of our generation, so for me to expierance an out of body feeling is something I am fascinated by and would love to do if it was not halachicaly problematic)





hello , i am looking to take ayahuasca  or magic mushrooms to treat my depression , however the  retreats  that have this treatment has shamans (religious guides) that make pagan rituals on the medicine so it makes it impossible for religious jews to attend do you you have any suggestions?
p.s i tried ketamine and pharmaceuticals in the usa already nothing works

Offline yeshiva guy

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: jerusalem
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #93 on: December 16, 2021, 06:25:51 AM »
Is Ayahuasca, the same thing being discussed here?
I was just speaking to someone who asked R Dovid Fienstien if it's Avoda Zara, which he said he's not familiar with it. However R Heinman was familiar with it and told him it's not..
The reasoning iiuc is that a root of a plant can't become Assur and also those who worship it are worshipping the spirit/snake behind it not the actual plant

hello , i am looking to take ayahuasca  or magic mushrooms to treat my depression , however the  retreats  that have this treatment has shamans (religious guides) that make pagan rituals on the medicine so it makes it impossible for religious jews to attend do you you have any suggestions?
p.s i tried ketamine and pharmaceuticals in the usa already nothing works

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #94 on: December 16, 2021, 06:28:15 AM »
hello , i am looking to take ayahuasca  or magic mushrooms to treat my depression , however the  retreats  that have this treatment has shamans (religious guides) that make pagan rituals on the medicine so it makes it impossible for religious jews to attend do you you have any suggestions?
p.s i tried ketamine and pharmaceuticals in the usa already nothing works
I would imagine that Amudim or the like will have direct knowledge and experience.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yeshiva guy

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: jerusalem
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #95 on: December 16, 2021, 06:33:06 AM »
I would imagine that Amudim or the like will have direct knowledge and experience.
thanks for your response , i tried them but they said they have no idea, they said they to ask my LOR, but my local rabbi have no knowledge in this area

Offline JuryDuty

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1106
  • Total likes: 227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 18
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #96 on: December 16, 2021, 07:46:46 AM »
hello , i am looking to take ayahuasca  or magic mushrooms to treat my depression , however the  retreats  that have this treatment has shamans (religious guides) that make pagan rituals on the medicine so it makes it impossible for religious jews to attend do you you have any suggestions?
p.s i tried ketamine and pharmaceuticals in the usa already nothing works

Have you been communicating with a psychiatrist? This seems like an area they would be able to help navigate. (Ie they should be able to prescribe something can effectively treat depression, and are unlikely to direct a patient towards unregulated options). If yes, what's they're response to nothing has worked so far?
Jury Duty: Nothing to do there but chill and write a TR. Kinda like the beach but missing the view and ocean breeze.

Offline YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 5552
  • Total likes: 13698
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #97 on: December 16, 2021, 07:57:38 AM »
thanks for your response , i tried them but they said they have no idea, they said they to ask my LOR, but my local rabbi have no knowledge in this area
It may be helpful to contact Bikur Cholim, or another such organization. Although they won't necessarily know, they will probably be more than happy to do research for you, and they have experience in doing such things.

Offline yeshiva guy

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: jerusalem
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #98 on: December 16, 2021, 10:04:24 AM »
Have you been communicating with a psychiatrist? This seems like an area they would be able to help navigate. (Ie they should be able to prescribe something can effectively treat depression, and are unlikely to direct a patient towards unregulated options). If yes, what's they're response to nothing has worked so far?

correct, i have tried just about every pill and ketamine infusions ect... ( all treatments that are legal)
also they gave me there blessing to try it ,but its tainted with avodazara i watched couple videos on vice and checked online for dmt retreats  and all include shamans who perform rituals

Offline yeshiva guy

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: jerusalem
Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #99 on: December 16, 2021, 10:08:55 AM »
It may be helpful to contact Bikur Cholim, or another such organization. Although they won't necessarily know, they will probably be more than happy to do research for you, and they have experience in doing such things.
great idea, i have already  emailed the star k and sent them  some articles on the retreats and on the shamans ,
although i hope the op reads this as his post seemed to imply that the drug would be administered in a  medical facility and not in a rainforest( with shamans) ,
p.s the dmt is amazing it cleans out anything you have suppressed your whole life