Author Topic: Kashering Lodge Cast Iron Pots  (Read 10303 times)

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2019, 04:44:43 PM »
That is not for libun according to many poskim. Libun is not a polet but a michale.

Ok. So 1. what is the answer IF libun is indeed required? 2. Is libun indeed required given the process used for seasoning?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2019, 04:51:35 PM »
Ok. So 1. what is the answer IF libun is indeed required? 2. Is libun indeed required given the process used for seasoning?

1. There are differing opinions about whether or not self cleaning will work for libun gamur.
2. My understanding is that libun gamur is not required based on a chazon ish. I had written about this more extensively in a different thread. I think the food and recipe thread.
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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2019, 05:00:38 PM »
1. There are differing opinions about whether or not self cleaning will work for libun gamur.
2. My understanding is that libun gamur is not required based on a chazon ish. I had written about this more extensively in a different thread. I think the food and recipe thread.

I don't remember the details, but I was told like you wrote in #2 (without basing it on a Chazon Ish).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2019, 05:07:01 PM »
I don't remember the details, but I was told like you wrote in #2 (without basing it on a Chazon Ish).
The CRC agrees
http://www.crcweb.org/Sappirim/Sappirim%2022%20(Jan%202012).pdf

The COR does not require any kashering at all
http://cor.ca/view/873/cast_iron_cookware_preseasoned.html
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Offline yzj

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2019, 06:03:04 PM »
That is not for libun according to many poskim. Libun is not a polet but a michale.
Although there is one lashon in the Rishonim that libun is פולט כל דבר ונופל לארץ the concensus of the Rishonim/ achronim is that it is שורף ומכלה.

I’ve had blacksmiths tell me that all organic matter is destroyed before the metal reaches red heat, and given the temperatures used to self clean an oven that makes sense but IDK if that helps us lehalacha. After all stainless steel has little if any beliyos but for practical purposes we treat it as if it does (cast iron certainly has plenty of beliyos as evidenced by the seasoning).

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2019, 06:29:03 PM »
The CRC agrees
http://www.crcweb.org/Sappirim/Sappirim%2022%20(Jan%202012).pdf

The COR does not require any kashering at all
http://cor.ca/view/873/cast_iron_cookware_preseasoned.html

Anyone know where the CRC gets this from?
“The other issue is that due to the weight and thickness of cast iron cookware, the metal will not get hot if one m erely dips into the hag’alah water for a few seconds. Rather, the items should be put into the boiling water and left there for l ong enough tha t the water itself comes back to a boil, which indicates that the cast iron itself has become heated to hag’alah temperatures.”

You can kasher stone and wood which are much poorer conductors of heat than cast iron, and these things take a long time to conduct heat. (Just think- If you put a decent sized potato in boiling water it will take close to 30 minutes for the center of the potato to reach 200F). One would have to leave the stone or thick wood utensils in the boiling water for ages to get the center of the material to hagalah temperatures. Presumably as long as the water maintains its bubbling and it is al ha’aish it has the ability to draw out beliyos regardless of the utensils internal temperature. The same should hold true for cast iron. I get the need to bring the water back to boiling part since that is necessary for the hagalah to work, but that should have nothing to do with the cast iron utensils temperature. It’s been a while since I’ve gone through the sugya. Is there something I’m missing?

« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 06:34:26 PM by yzj »

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2019, 07:17:45 PM »
Anyone know where the CRC gets this from?
“The other issue is that due to the weight and thickness of cast iron cookware, the metal will not get hot if one m erely dips into the hag’alah water for a few seconds. Rather, the items should be put into the boiling water and left there for l ong enough tha t the water itself comes back to a boil, which indicates that the cast iron itself has become heated to hag’alah temperatures.”

You can kasher stone and wood which are much poorer conductors of heat than cast iron, and these things take a long time to conduct heat. (Just think- If you put a decent sized potato in boiling water it will take close to 30 minutes for the center of the potato to reach 200F). One would have to leave the stone or thick wood utensils in the boiling water for ages to get the center of the material to hagalah temperatures. Presumably as long as the water maintains its bubbling and it is al ha’aish it has the ability to draw out beliyos regardless of the utensils internal temperature. The same should hold true for cast iron. I get the need to bring the water back to boiling part since that is necessary for the hagalah to work, but that should have nothing to do with the cast iron utensils temperature. It’s been a while since I’ve gone through the sugya. Is there something I’m missing?
I'd assume, just based on your excerpt:
If they were worried about the internal temperature of the pot, their guidance is pretty weak, as you point out.
more likely, potato/wood etc., being bad conductors, don't much cool the water even while remaining internally 'cool', hence the boiling will resume relatively quickly. Heavy cast iron, being a better conductor, will actually perceptibly cool the water, requiring a short wait until the water returns to boiling. Once the water is back to boiling, we no longer 'care' about the internal temp

seems in psak they agree with you in any case, perhaps just poorly written explanation of the issue

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2019, 08:40:32 PM »
I'd assume, just based on your excerpt:
If they were worried about the internal temperature of the pot, their guidance is pretty weak, as you point out.
more likely, potato/wood etc., being bad conductors, don't much cool the water even while remaining internally 'cool', hence the boiling will resume relatively quickly. Heavy cast iron, being a better conductor, will actually perceptibly cool the water, requiring a short wait until the water returns to boiling. Once the water is back to boiling, we no longer 'care' about the internal temp

seems in psak they agree with you in any case, perhaps just poorly written explanation of the issue

Most likely.

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2019, 09:09:43 PM »
Although there is one lashon in the Rishonim that libun is פולט כל דבר ונופל לארץ the concensus of the Rishonim/ achronim is that it is שורף ומכלה.

I’ve had blacksmiths tell me that all organic matter is destroyed before the metal reaches red heat, and given the temperatures used to self clean an oven that makes sense but IDK if that helps us lehalacha. After all stainless steel has little if any beliyos but for practical purposes we treat it as if it does (cast iron certainly has plenty of beliyos as evidenced by the seasoning).

It had been about 15 years since I saw it inside, but IIRC you are referring to the מרדכי סוף עבודה זרה בשם אבי העזרי in his discussion about ליבון קל.
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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2019, 09:30:00 PM »
so asked a pretty widely accepted rov (most people here have heard of him and his seforim) today who told me that i don't need to kasher at all because its just vegetable derivative . in for one of these! thanx!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006JSUA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2019, 09:31:47 PM »
Definitely much better than 1.0, but it's got nothing on beef.
other than the health aspects...

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2019, 09:37:08 PM »
so asked a pretty widely accepted rov (most people here have heard of him and his seforim) today who told me that i don't need to kasher at all because its just vegetable derivative . in for one of these! thanx!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006JSUA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Don’t forget one of these

https://www.amazon.com/Lodge-Rectangular-Press-Cool-Grip-Handle/dp/B00063RXNI/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=144B464KQD6FH&keywords=grill+press+cast+iron&qid=1554428184&s=gateway&sprefix=grill+press&sr=8-3

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2019, 09:39:01 PM »
other than the health aspects...
Definitely much better than 1.0, but it's got nothing on beef.

IMO fair way to evalute would be the 2.0 with cheese ( and fried in butter) vs beef w/o

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2019, 09:44:48 PM »
so asked a pretty widely accepted rov (most people here have heard of him and his seforim) today who told me that i don't need to kasher at all because its just vegetable derivative . in for one of these! thanx!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006JSUA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Does he k know metzius well
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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2019, 09:52:00 PM »
It had been about 15 years since I saw it inside, but IIRC you are referring to the מרדכי סוף עבודה זרה בשם אבי העזרי in his discussion about ליבון קל.

It’s the issur viheter haaruch 58:19 and he is reffering to libun gamur.

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2019, 09:55:10 PM »
even if i sous vide my burgers?

Especially if you sous vide. You want a quick sear to finish the outside leaving the inside rare. Searing from the top and bottom will do this. Preheat the grill press as well as the pan. I still think smash burger is the way to go; my sous vide sits mostly in the cabinet, but to each his own.

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2019, 10:00:08 PM »
It’s the issur viheter haaruch 58:19 and he is reffering to libun gamur.
okay. It had been a while.
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Offline dealfinder11

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2019, 10:04:15 PM »
Does he k know metzius well

very . was dismissing the concern prior to me getting the words out of my mouth . Not necessarily a meikal in general.

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Re: Re: Impossible Burger 2.0
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2019, 10:07:17 PM »
Especially if you sous vide. You want a quick sear to finish the outside leaving the inside rare. Searing from the top and bottom will do this. Preheat the grill press as well as the pan. I still think smash burger is the way to go; my sous vide sits mostly in the cabinet, but to each his own.

once i sous vide steak, London Broil and chicken there was no going back! so easy, consistent and delicious. Didn't realize you can preheat the grill press (never used one) . You just leave it in pan while preheating?