Author Topic: Lakewood Forest Fire  (Read 8311 times)

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #225 on: April 17, 2019, 10:04:07 AM »
Let's just call that a long stretch rather than easy.
I know a person who was effected by someone who had no right to be making certain decisions (but he was able to because of Lakewoods power structure), when this person was still a young bachor. This person had a long struggle of many years after that and b"h didnt end up like my cause and effect list. But he most definitely isn't a main stream guy because of what happened. From what I know, this someone made same decisions about other kids and I dont know any of them, but I'm sure some where not as lucky as the one I know.
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Offline yelped

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #226 on: April 17, 2019, 10:25:25 AM »
-1
I don't think Judaism believes in the ends justifying the means.....
Source? Depends on what the end is and what the means are. Concept of Aveira Lishma. Question if you're allowed to do a small averira to save someone from a big Aveira. Pikuach Nefesh (the end) turning the issur (means) into a mitzvah, etc.

My point being you can't make a point blank statement that Judaism doesn't believe in the end justifying the means.

Offline Dawie

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #227 on: April 17, 2019, 10:44:27 AM »

Offline iwlw2

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #228 on: April 17, 2019, 01:16:19 PM »
Source? Depends on what the end is and what the means are. Concept of Aveira Lishma. Question if you're allowed to do a small averira to save someone from a big Aveira. Pikuach Nefesh (the end) turning the issur (means) into a mitzvah, etc.

My point being you can't make a point blank statement that Judaism doesn't believe in the end justifying the means.
You are right, I should have written "generally does not believe in the end justifying the means". That being said, I don't think that this qualified as Pikuach nefesh (despite a previous poster's attempt to wave a tale of how this could lead to that), we generally say אין אומרים לאדם חטא בשביל שיזכה חבירך even if there would have been a clear cut aveira gedola you were saving someone from here, and I really don't think you want to play around with the concept of עבירה לשמה, it is quite xomplex and beyond the scope of this forum to get into, and needless to say I think we can agree it a)does not apply here, and b) even if it did it is doubtful that there was much לשמה involved here.......

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #229 on: April 17, 2019, 08:12:22 PM »

Online B.D.Da'ehu

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #230 on: April 17, 2019, 09:21:33 PM »
http://matzav.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/802_3725_2.mp3

Rav Uren Reich. Very powerful kedarko.
One of the main (if not the main) point of his speech was that the organizers of this event then went ahead and photoshopped the kol Korah and it was a big bizayon.


Is that true? Any shmoe probably went ahead and did this. Why make out the organizers as servants of the yetzer horah? And that this whole thing was one 'egel hazahav'?
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Online davidrotts63

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #231 on: April 17, 2019, 09:26:01 PM »


One of the main (if not the main) point of his speech was that the organizers of this event then went ahead and photoshopped the kol Korah and it was a big bizayon.


Is that true?
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Offline Eliyohu

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #232 on: April 17, 2019, 11:14:03 PM »
One of the main (if not the main) point of his speech was that the organizers of this event then went ahead and photoshopped the kol Korah and it was a big bizayon.


Is that true? Any shmoe probably went ahead and did this. Why make out the organizers as servants of the yetzer horah? And that this whole thing was one 'egel hazahav'?
Highly unlikely.

He was very upset about the Maacha and the cops as well etc.. from what I hear it only became a matzav/ the crowd grew exponentially after the cops were called (by a certain person והמבין יבין)
..besides what makes him think the organizers of the event arranged the kumzitz... (It seemed from the videos like a mob mentality more then anything else not something you can blame a specific person..)

Being that there were differences of opinions and even changed opinions reportedly because of pressure, a real explanation is due.. not just a "you gotta believe" especially today that sadly Rabbinim are fed all sorts of information...

His explanation that in the future it's gonna be a mixed concert...

Regarding that such a thing has never happened in Klal Yisroel.. um for the last (10?) years this has been going on in EY under the name kumzing or kumtantz.. iiuc with the bracha and support of R Aron Leib..  (besides for R Meilich Beiderman, R Mota Frank's kumzitzin)


Offline yuneeq

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #233 on: April 18, 2019, 01:50:15 AM »
-1
I don't think Judaism believes in the ends justifying the means.....

I don’t condone anyone throwing eggs, but if 200 people protest and 3 of them end up throwing eggs, I wouldn’t discourage the 197 peaceful protestors from protesting. It’s not their problem that a couple of guys decide to do something stupid. As far as each of the 197 people are concerned, they protested peacefully and it lead to good results. Can’t blame them for the action of a few.
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Offline yesitsme

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Re: Lakewood Forest Fire
« Reply #234 on: April 18, 2019, 02:05:16 AM »