Author Topic: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility  (Read 2682 times)

Offline Yonah

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Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« on: April 30, 2019, 12:11:50 PM »
In the wake of the Poway attack, I've heard some more discussion about removing davening times from shul websites. I've debated this with people over the last several years and more and more shuls take up additional security measures - many security consultants/experts recommend taking davening times off of your shul website, and/or not publishing on minyan databases - i.e. GoDaven.org.

 I struggle with this - it makes obvious sense not to make your minyan information accessible to the general public, and for the most part, most minyan regulars know the minyan time after the first week or so. But at the same time, as someone who has found himself in a position where I was traveling and needed to make a last minute minyan, I definitely benefited from having that information out there.

Curious what others out there think - has the time come to limit minyan time information as a threat deterrent?


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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2019, 12:17:16 PM »
Are you proposing bowing down to terror?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Definitions

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2019, 12:48:07 PM »
 As of now I say keep the times up.
My Tapatalk notifications don't always work.

Offline Yonah

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2019, 01:59:35 PM »
Are you proposing bowing down to terror?

Bowing down to terror would be stopping the minyan. But removing the best times for a terrorist to attack from the most obvious place is merely a deterrent in their intelligence gathering process

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2019, 02:16:15 PM »
Bowing down to terror would be stopping the minyan. But removing the best times for a terrorist to attack from the most obvious place is merely a deterrent in their intelligence gathering process

So you're saying let's not do a full bow down, maybe just a nod?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2019, 02:49:31 PM »
I don't think that taking precautions should be rejected out of hand. That's like saying that hiring a security guard is bowing to terror (even though those funds could be used for other religious programs).

I'm not saying what SHOULD be done, only that I don't think we should reject the point without considering it.

Perhaps a login to access times with some basic info that anyone who can google "minyan time" would know how to answer?

Offline Proisrael

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2019, 04:05:38 AM »
I don't think that taking precautions should be rejected out of hand. That's like saying that hiring a security guard is bowing to terror (even though those funds could be used for other religious programs).

I'm not saying what SHOULD be done, only that I don't think we should reject the point without considering it.

Perhaps a login to access times with some basic info that anyone who can google "minyan time" would know how to answer?

All it would take is a stakeout in front to see when prayers start. It is not rocket science to figure out when we daven. If we make Shuls harder targets what stops them from targeting schools which do not have any security as well...

Offline Yonah

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2019, 08:49:09 AM »
So you're saying let's not do a full bow down, maybe just a nod?

Is locking your door bowing down to burglary? Adding security cams?

Offline Yonah

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2019, 08:55:08 AM »
All it would take is a stakeout in front to see when prayers start. It is not rocket science to figure out when we daven.
a) Yes, but that's an extra step he'd need to take
b) People (hopefully) would take notice, and he'd be caught on camera
c) While you would think it's not difficult to figure out when we daven, it's not as simple as you think - ask a non-Jewish colleague how many times a day do they think Jews pray - I'm not sure many of them would be able to answer.
d) If davening times were so easy to figure out, why would we need to publish them?

If we make Shuls harder targets what stops them from targeting schools which do not have any security as well...
a) what makes you think that they're not already targeting schools?
b) I don't know about you, but my kids yeshivas all have security - guards, cameras, etc.


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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2019, 09:26:22 AM »
Is locking your door bowing down to burglary? Adding security cams?

No, and no. These are living your life the same way just spending a few dollars for peace of mind. It is not a detriment to anyone in the shul if there’s cameras.

Deleting shul times inconveniences everyone and it’s only done if you’re living in fear.
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Offline Yehudaa

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2019, 09:41:17 AM »
No, and no. These are living your life the same way just spending a few dollars for peace of mind. It is not a detriment to anyone in the shul if there’s cameras.

Deleting shul times inconveniences everyone and it’s only done if you’re living in fear.
Post-9/11 airport security also inconveniences everyone, but it's (mostly) necessary to protect against terrorism. Is that bowing to terrorism? Should we not have this level of security?

Besides, I'd prefer to bow to terrorism than get shot by a terrorist.

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2019, 10:23:24 AM »
Post-9/11 airport security also inconveniences everyone, but it's (mostly) necessary to protect against terrorism. Is that bowing to terrorism? Should we not have this level of security?

Besides, I'd prefer to bow to terrorism than get shot by a terrorist.
has the TSA actually thwarted any terror attacks? Would they have actually stopped the 9-11 hijackers with their miserable success rates. But if going through the motions makes you feel better, by all means. I have accidentally brought items through security that could potentially be very dangerous. I once had all my binding equipment packed in a suitcase intended for checking but took it carry on last minute, forgetting what was inside.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2019, 10:27:47 AM »
has the TSA actually thwarted any terror attacks? Would they have actually stopped the 9-11 hijackers with their miserable success rates.

1. Yes they have stopped attacks.

2.  Unclear, as the attacks were done with small weapons, but the TSA is one level among a few (secure flight data being run though a no fly list, locked cockpit doors, expansion of the Air Marshall program), increased airport surveillance...

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2019, 11:26:10 AM »
Post-9/11 airport security also inconveniences everyone, but it's (mostly) necessary to protect against terrorism. Is that bowing to terrorism? Should we not have this level of security?

Besides, I'd prefer to bow to terrorism than get shot by a terrorist.

If there's no other way, then do it.
If we're so concerned about security that you need to unpublish times, there are bigger measures to take that would make it redundant.
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Offline Yonah

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2019, 11:31:02 AM »
...
Deleting shul times inconveniences everyone and it’s only done if you’re living in fear.

Who does it inconvenience? think about it for a second.

If you are a regular at a given shul - you likely already know the given weekly schedule:
- Shacharis times are usually fixed by day of week
- Late Ma'ariv Minyanim times are usually fixed
- M/M for most shuls is fixed at, say 20 minutes or so before Shkiah

If you are not a regular - would you really trust the minyan times on the site? Or would you likely reach out to someone from the shul to verify? (do you want to chance that 3 year old information on GoDaven is correct?)

If the shul is a minyan factory - it doesn't really matter.  Of all of the Jewish Mosdos, Minyan Factories are probably the easiest targets. (Chas V'Shalom)





Offline Yonah

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2019, 11:31:52 AM »
If we're so concerned about security that you need to unpublish times, there are bigger measures to take that would make it redundant.

Such as?

Offline mercaz1

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2019, 11:40:01 AM »
I love the fact that minyan times are up and there is a calendar. There are certain shuls that I am not a regular of that I haven certain times of the year i.e. siyum bechor, Megilla, etc and without the website posting times I would be in the dark.

Offline Eliyohu

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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2019, 11:47:20 AM »


Who does it inconvenience? think about it for a second.

If you are not a regular - do you want to chance that 3 year old information on GoDaven is correct?

Go Daven info happens to be very accurate, they recently revamped their site and is fantastic.
Over the last few weeks I found myself using it many times.  People who are semi- regulars but don't necessarily remember the exact times find it really helpful...



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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2019, 11:54:52 AM »
Who does it inconvenience? think about it for a second.

If you are a regular at a given shul - you likely already know the given weekly schedule:
- Shacharis times are usually fixed by day of week
- Late Ma'ariv Minyanim times are usually fixed
- M/M for most shuls is fixed at, say 20 minutes or so before Shkiah

If you are not a regular - would you really trust the minyan times on the site? Or would you likely reach out to someone from the shul to verify? (do you want to chance that 3 year old information on GoDaven is correct?)

If the shul is a minyan factory - it doesn't really matter.  Of all of the Jewish Mosdos, Minyan Factories are probably the easiest targets. (Chas V'Shalom)

Inconveniences everyone to a different degree.
I pray in multiple shuls, some more often than others, and between Shabbos schedules, Holiday schedules, ben hazmanim, changing seasons, or just wanting to pray a different hour than usual there are many occassions where I would want to be able to look up the times. When traveling it can mean making multiple phone calls just to find a shul to go to.
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Re: Publishing Davening Times - Security vs. Utility
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2019, 11:55:21 AM »
Such as?

Putting security guards
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