Author Topic: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?  (Read 4241 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2019, 11:46:58 AM »

Most likely kasuv hashlishi viyachriya beineihem is that that expressed their displeasure strongly in a way that he understood to be a threat while it was not intended as such. I can see that happening with a sentence along the lines of "We are uncomfortable with a store under our hechsher doing this"
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2019, 11:48:16 AM »
I think some people don't realize that there are many people in Lakewood who could not care less about issues that old Lakewooders make. Saying people won't step foot into there etc. is just not accurate anymore.
but saying that some people wouldn't is still true. For example, if would would have big screen TVs there he would lose a big chunk of his current customer base.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Fish Tank

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Re: Re: Lakewood NJ Master Thread
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2019, 11:51:55 AM »
on most of the facebook chats, i would say prob 95% are not from lakewood. so they can scream all they want, but they dont know the situation.
. . . and 97% of the FB and DDF posters are not food establishment owners that have experience dealing with hechsheirim.

but i would say most wont eat in a store where the owner goes directly against the hashgacho he holds. then come the questions, if thats what he does, what else??
. . . Proving my point. It doesn't work that that way. You don't get to choose whether you "want to listen to the hashgachah". You need to do what they say. They obviously didn't demand he remove the flag. They "strongly suggested" or whatever. 

Online TimT

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Re: Re: Lakewood NJ Master Thread
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2019, 11:52:51 AM »
Not necessarily, but he won't fit in to the catagory that kcl consider absolutely trustworthy.
Would Rav Yosef Shlomo not fit in the category either ?

Offline Yosel

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2019, 12:15:32 PM »
guys calm down  """it's lutvak Lakewood in it's true colors""""

Offline avromie7

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Re: Re: Lakewood NJ Master Thread
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2019, 12:26:26 PM »
. . . Proving my point. It doesn't work that that way. You don't get to choose whether you "want to listen to the hashgachah". You need to do what they say. They obviously didn't demand he remove the flag. They "strongly suggested" or whatever.
A hechsher doesn't have a right to control you. What if they said you're not allowed to go to Florida and he went, would you also say who said he listens to anything else they say? If he had a product or ingredient that they didn't approve (even if it's super kosher) I would agree with you, but this has nothing to do with the kashrus of his store.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2019, 12:32:42 PM »
Would Rav Yosef Shlomo not fit in the category either ?
The whole poneviz aurgument is silly

Offline Yonah

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Re: Re: Lakewood NJ Master Thread
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2019, 12:37:57 PM »
In KCLs own words that their hasgacha is mainly on the person.. this whole thing kinda actually makes sense...


As I mentioned above - KCL gave this man a hasgacha. If KCL feels that supporting Israel invalidates someone from being fit to run a kosher establishment, then their vetting process itself is flawed, and we shouldn't trust any establishment that has their hashgacha until they ascertain that non of the other balei batim support Israel.

Online TimT

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2019, 12:40:51 PM »
The whole poneviz aurgument is silly
Mentioning TV or mini skirts is far worse

Offline Yonah

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Re: Re: Lakewood NJ Master Thread
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2019, 12:44:51 PM »
wrong wrong wrong. yes maybe the people who care about the flag, but i would say most wont eat in a store where the owner goes directly against the hashgacho he holds.
I'm sure the owner ignored the fine print in his contract that said '.... and if you hang the Israeli Flag outside your store on yom hatzmaut, your flag is no longer valid'.

then come the questions, if thats what he does, what else??

OMG - you're right - I mean if he hangs an Israeli flag - I'm sure his wife wears an Indian Hair Sheitel

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2019, 12:48:06 PM »
A hechsher doesn't have a right to control you. What if they said you're not allowed to go to Florida and he went, would you also say who said he listens to anything else they say? If he had a product or ingredient that they didn't approve (even if it's super kosher) I would agree with you, but this has nothing to do with the kashrus of his store.
KCL give a hechsher on the person. They absolutely need to control the individual responsible.
They don't have a mashgiach temidi

Offline sky121

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2019, 12:59:37 PM »
When did kashrut stop being about kosher?
"Not all who wander are lost"

Online yitzgar

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2019, 01:02:35 PM »
When did kashrut stop being about kosher?
That's what pretty much this whole thread has been about. Did you read it?

Online TimT

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2019, 01:03:20 PM »
KCL give a hechsher on the person. They absolutely need to control the individual responsible.
They don't have a mashgiach temidi
Do they also give him a list of hotels & beaches he may & may not go to. And what style clothing him, his wife, & children may & may not wear. He hung a flag, he wasn’t caught driving on shabbos or eating treif FCOL.

Offline Yonah

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Re: Lose Your Hechsher In Lakewood If You Fly An Israeli Flag?
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2019, 01:03:59 PM »
Obviously from my comments, I am clearly upset about this. This is just another piece in a long line of, what IMVHO are overreach from Kashrus organizations. I understand that there are many of you reading this who disagree with me, but here is just a partial list:

- https://www.jta.org/1993/06/11/archive/pepsi-no-longer-kosher-for-some-other-rabbis-still-saying-uh-huh
- Natanya Pizza in Brooklyn's infamous Pizza Mechitza
- The Kinder Eggs story in Israel where a chain imported by circumventing the main importer and even though they had the same european hashgacha, the Rabbanut declared the ones from the alternate importer couldn't say they were kosher


But all of that aside, and not having run a food establishment myself, I'm curious of hashgachas come with a 'Morality Clause'. i.e. in addition to certifying that your food is kosher, our hashgacha's brand is trusted by the members of our community to uphold not just standards of kashrus, but also standards of tznius, and hanhagah yehudit. Therefore, our certification is contingent upon you following these rules as well....

You might argue that this is the same thing, but it's not - the difference is if the hashgacha made it obvious beforehand.