Author Topic: sources for things we say by davening  (Read 697 times)

Offline eli1571

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sources for things we say by davening
« on: May 15, 2019, 06:46:13 AM »
Where is the source to say the pesukim ראשית חכמה  and so on ?
Is it only for kids as mentioned in some sidurim or adults as well ?

Online yelped

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Re: sources for things we say by davening
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 10:29:59 PM »
Where is the source to say the pesukim ראשית חכמה  and so on ?
Is it only for kids as mentioned in some sidurim or adults as well ?
Only for kids? I've never seen that before. I would be interested in seeing a source.

Offline cmey

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Re: sources for things we say by davening
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2019, 01:11:53 AM »
Where is the source to say the pesukim ראשית חכמה  and so on ?
Is it only for kids as mentioned in some sidurim or adults as well ?

Itís the sefer  kitzur shilah (printed several hundred years ago) who actually states that these pesukim should not be said by adults. Indeed they are not found in most of the older siddurim. (Interestingly, modeh ani itself, which is brought down in the poskim, did not make it into the siddur until the late 1500ís, when itís nussach was authored. Other versions were composed in later siddurim, but the original one was adopted by most siddurim. Although the yerushalmi has a tefilla that shares the beginning of modeh ani it has little resemblance to the modeh ani that was introduced to siddurim a little over 400 years ago.). The siddur Ateres Yerushalayim says that there are those who are opposed to saying ראשית חכמה etc. since one should not say pessukim prior to bircas hatorah, which presumably is why the kitzur shilah was opposed to it as well.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 03:06:24 AM by cmey »

Offline eli1571

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Re: sources for things we say by davening
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2019, 02:22:03 PM »
It’s the sefer  kitzur shilah (printed several hundred years ago) who actually states that these pesukim should not be said by adults. Indeed they are not found in most of the older siddurim. (Interestingly, modeh ani itself, which is brought down in the poskim, did not make it into the siddur until the late 1500’s, when it’s nussach was authored. Other versions were composed in later siddurim, but the original one was adopted by most siddurim. Although the yerushalmi has a tefilla that shares the beginning of modeh ani it has little resemblance to the modeh ani that was introduced to siddurim a little over 400 years ago.). The siddur Ateres Yerushalayim says that there are those who are opposed to saying ראשית חכמה etc. since one should not say pessukim prior to bircas hatorah, which presumably is why the kitzur shilah was opposed to it as well.


Thanx. The kitzur shlah quotes the posuk torah tzivah, which is really a gemara, where did reishis chochma and shema bni come from?
Author of modeh ani is the seder hayom, lived in safed about 400 years ago. It's quoted in magen Avraham siman 4, there's another version from the yerushalmi quoted in the first biur halacha.

Offline eli1571

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Re: sources for things we say by davening
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2019, 02:23:42 PM »
Only for kids? I've never seen that before. I would be interested in seeing a source.
The old sidurim had it written in Yiddish, most new ones including kaftor voferach, mesivta, hameforosh, say its for kids.

Offline cmey

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Re: sources for things we say by davening
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2019, 12:02:04 AM »
Thanx. The kitzur shlah quotes the posuk torah tzivah, which is really a gemara, where did reishis chochma and shema bni come from?
Author of modeh ani is the seder hayom, lived in safed about 400 years ago. It's quoted in magen Avraham siman 4, there's another version from the yerushalmi quoted in the first biur halacha.

The Ravya and Mordechai bring a yerushalmi that adds shma bni to the pesukim that a father first teaches his child. There doesnít seem to be an earlier mekor for the other pesukim.

Offline eli1571

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Re: sources for things we say by davening
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2019, 07:49:48 AM »
The Ravya and Mordechai bring a yerushalmi that adds shma bni to the pesukim that a father first teaches his child. There doesn’t seem to be an earlier mekor for the other pesukim.
I haven't found a source at all yet for reishis chochma

Offline ushdadude

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Re: sources for things we say by davening
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2019, 09:41:46 AM »
I recently heard that after counting sefira you should say "yehi ratzon sheyibaneh ...." (Based on tosfos) and that the harachaman  is a relatively new substitution
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Offline Dan

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Re: sources for things we say by davening
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2019, 10:52:31 AM »
Where is the source to say the pesukim ראשית חכמה  and so on ?
Is it only for kids as mentioned in some sidurim or adults as well ?
Doesn't appear in Nusach Ari.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.