Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality

[yitzgar]

We can go back and forth for days but you're probably not going to be persuaded to hold like the other.

This pretty much sums up JS

[yitzgar]

This pretty much sums up JS

And the internet

[saw50st8]

I may be out of touch but I have a hard time believing that a significant percentage of unwanted pregnancies are because they didn't know about or couldn't get bc.  I prefer not to elaborate.

 
I don't know what to make of your suggestion to criminalize the men.  1) Who says he doesn't want the pregnancy?  Under current law, he doesn't have a say.  2) Why is he more responsible than her, barring instances of rape?
3) How could such a law be enforceable? He'll claim he wanted it at the time but now changed his mind.  Are you going to criminalize changing of mind?

Also, from a morality point of view, abortion is ok, but pregnancy is criminal?  Absurd.


I don't know what you mean by your last line but it's clear and it's been the stated goal of these laws to provoke a SCOTUS challenge to Roe.

You are out of touch. I'm not being facetious. How easy do you think it is for a 14 year old in backwater Alabama and has been preached to about abstinence only to get accurate information regarding her cycle, when she can actually get pregnant, how condoms prevent STD and STI and fully understand the ramifications. Or worry that the one pharmacist in town is going to tell her parents that she got birth control or condoms. It is not always easy.

As to criminalizing pregnancy - regardless of whether a man wants the pregnancy or not, if he impregnated a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy it would be an involuntary pregnancy kind of like involuntary manslaughter. Maybe a man who causes 2 unwanted pregnancies should be required to have a vasectomy? She is already held responsible by now being forced to carry the pregnancy. He should be equally responsible in some way no? That definitely includes financially but also in a meaningful legal way. I'm not really serious with thinking this, I just think men don't truly understand the scope of what is being forced on women here. It is way more invasive than forcing a vasectomy.

I also want to point out that rape is hard to prove but involuntary pregnancy is much easier to prove. I know aygart was being facetious but clearly condoms and rape being illegal isn't stopping the problem.

[gingyguy]

You are out of touch. I'm not being facetious. How easy do you think it is for a 14 year old in backwater Alabama and has been preached to about abstinence only to get accurate information regarding her cycle, when she can actually get pregnant, how condoms prevent STD and STI and fully understand the ramifications. Or worry that the one pharmacist in town is going to tell her parents that she got birth control or condoms. It is not always easy.

 

This 14 yr old girl who lives in Backwater Alabama , (who i  imagine is a minority of people affected by this law) has real problems if

she is worry that the one pharmacist in town is going to tell her parents that she got birth control or condoms.

and forgets that its the same Pharmacist in Backwater ,Alabama is also the dog catcher and the abortion guy.
Just saying.

[aygart]

You are out of touch. I'm not being facetious. How easy do you think it is for a 14 year old in backwater Alabama and has been preached to about abstinence only to get accurate information regarding her cycle, when she can actually get pregnant, how condoms prevent STD and STI and fully understand the ramifications. Or worry that the one pharmacist in town is going to tell her parents that she got birth control or condoms. It is not always easy.

As to criminalizing pregnancy - regardless of whether a man wants the pregnancy or not, if he impregnated a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy it would be an involuntary pregnancy kind of like involuntary manslaughter. Maybe a man who causes 2 unwanted pregnancies should be required to have a vasectomy? She is already held responsible by now being forced to carry the pregnancy. He should be equally responsible in some way no? That definitely includes financially but also in a meaningful legal way. I'm not really serious with thinking this, I just think men don't truly understand the scope of what is being forced on women here. It is way more invasive than forcing a vasectomy.

I also want to point out that rape is hard to prove but involuntary pregnancy is much easier to prove. I know aygart was being facetious but clearly condoms and rape being illegal isn't stopping the problem.

Not sure why you think I was being facetious. That is literally what you were proposing.

[S209]

and yet in the torah/mishna/gemara we see that:
- the punishment for damages that end a pregnancy isn't equivalent to murder.
- A child isn't considered a viable human being until 30 days out of the womb.

-1

See Sanhedrin 57B and Rambam Melachim 9:4

[saw50st8]

Not sure why you think I was being facetious. That is literally what you were proposing.

You think condoms are the only form of birth control? Or that men don't slide them off right before? There is a lot of gray out in the world.

That actually isn't what I am proposing.  I think all men should have vasectomies and then there would be no abortions necessary!

[Boruch999]

You think condoms are the only form of birth control? Or that men don't slide them off right before? There is a lot of gray out in the world.

That actually isn't what I am proposing.  I think all men should have vasectomies and then there would be no abortions necessary!

Thanks for the clarification.  You are either completely insane or a troll.

[saw50st8]

Thanks for the clarification.  You are either completely insane or a troll.

Or being facetious ;-)

[gingyguy]

in this case this

You are a troll.

is the same as this

Or being facetious ;-)

[saw50st8]

in this case this is the same as this

I thought I made my position clear previously.

Abortions should be legal. Society should work on policies that reduce unwanted pregnancies AND increase social welfare/support to limit the abortions chosen for financial reasons. 

I also think it is very easy for men to think abortions should be banned because they have zero actual responsibility. I do think any legislation that limits women's rights for abortion should pin more rights to the men who impregnated women in some way.  So forcing vasectomies? Maybe facetious and slightly absurd but men 100% need to be more responsible for impregnating women.

[I do think a policy mandating that men who repeatedly impregnate women and then abandon their responsibilities should be forced to limit their reproduction in some way and I am not being facetious]

[aygart]

You think condoms are the only form of birth control? Or that men don't slide them off right before? There is a lot of gray out in the world.

That actually isn't what I am proposing.  I think all men should have vasectomies and then there would be no abortions necessary!

So how about you explain what you mean by criminalizing causing an unintended pregnancy other that criminalizing rape?
So how about you explain exactly which forms of birth control you are proposing should be available over the counter other than the ones which already are?

You are writing in very vague terms which left the only interpretation almost to be the way I interpreted it. If you write in more than just vagaries then it can be discussed. If you just write criminalizing unintended pregnancies then it either means a case where it was consensual which leaves to question what the criminal act was or that it was non-consensual in which case it is already criminalized.

[saw50st8]

So how about you explain what you mean by criminalizing causing an unintended pregnancy other that criminalizing rape?
So how about you explain exactly which forms of birth control you are proposing should be available over the counter other than the ones which already are?

You are writing in very vague terms which left the only interpretation almost to be the way I interpreted it. If you write in more than just vagaries then it can be discussed. If you just write criminalizing unintended pregnancies then it either means a case where it was consensual which leaves to question what the criminal act was or that it was non-consensual in which case it is already criminalized.

Criminalizing unwanted pregnancies means that any man who causes a woman a pregnancy she doesn't want should be legally responsible for more than just child support.  It should not be as harsh a crime as rape - maybe a misdemeanor.  Is there a reason you would oppose this? [I actually do have concerns about this too - every law has negative effects]

Read this about access/availability. There are ways to increase access and information for women and prevent unplanned pregnancies. You will never prevent all of them.  It is not a new article (2015): https://www.acog.org/Clinical-Guidance-and-Publications/Committee-Opinions/Committee-on-Health-Care-for-Underserved-Women/Access-to-Contraception?IsMobileSet=false

[chinagel]

Criminalizing unwanted pregnancies means that any man who causes a woman a pregnancy she doesn't want should be legally responsible for more than just child support.  It should not be as harsh a crime as rape - maybe a misdemeanor.  Is there a reason you would oppose this? [I actually do have concerns about this too - every law has negative effects]

Read this about access/availability. There are ways to increase access and information for women and prevent unplanned pregnancies. You will never prevent all of them.  It is not a new article (2015): https://www.acog.org/Clinical-Guidance-and-Publications/Committee-Opinions/Committee-on-Health-Care-for-Underserved-Women/Access-to-Contraception?IsMobileSet=false

What does that mean? Who decides?

[Boruch999]

Criminalizing unwanted pregnancies means that any man who causes a woman a pregnancy she doesn't want should be legally responsible for more than just child support.  It should not be as harsh a crime as rape - maybe a misdemeanor.  Is there a reason you would oppose this? [I actually do have concerns about this too - every law has negative effects]

Why is he more responsible for the pregnancy than she is?

What if she tells him she wants it and then changes her mind?

What if they both want it and then both change their minds?  Will you criminalize the mind change?

Never mind negatives, your whole idea is incoherent.

[aygart]

Criminalizing unwanted pregnancies means that any man who causes a woman a pregnancy she doesn't want should be legally responsible for more than just child support.  It should not be as harsh a crime as rape - maybe a misdemeanor.  Is there a reason you would oppose this? [I actually do have concerns about this too - every law has negative effects]

Please explain your case of a mutually consensual act where the consequences are criminal for one of the two parties but not the other? Are we only discussing the person who slips off a condom? What about the woman who became pregnant without the man wanting it?

I don't necessarily oppose it. I simply have no clue what you are proposing.

[saw50st8]

What does that mean? Who decides?

A woman would have to declare that she would abort her fetus but it is illegal so she is being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

Why is he more responsible for the pregnancy than she is?

What if she tells him she wants it and then changes her mind?

What if they both want it and then both change their minds?  Will you criminalize the mind change?

Never mind negatives, your whole idea is incoherent.

A woman being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy is already being forced into "being responsible" - it isn't like she can offer to transfer the pregnancy to a man. What is the repercussion for a man who impregnates a woman when she is forced to carry to term?

Please explain your case of a mutually consensual act where the consequences are criminal for one of the two parties but not the other? Are we only discussing the person who slips off a condom? What about the woman who became pregnant without the man wanting it?

I don't necessarily oppose it. I simply have no clue what you are proposing.

Intercourse itself isn't criminal, but impregnating a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy should be. A man would have to prove that in addition to taking necessary precautions, he discussed the potential pregnancy with a woman and that she understands she could get pregnant and cannot abort the child. A man should be responsible for his sperm at all times. Impregnating a woman who wants to be pregnant is not a crime. A woman who becomes pregnant even if a man doesn't want it is still the one who is carrying the child to term. She is already "being responsible" for the child.

I am open to any ideas that actually make men as responsible for unwanted pregnancies as women, when women cannot abort.

[mmgfarb]

A woman would have to declare that she would abort her fetus but it is illegal so she is being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

A woman being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy is already being forced into "being responsible" - it isn't like she can offer to transfer the pregnancy to a man. What is the repercussion for a man who impregnates a woman when she is forced to carry to term?

Intercourse itself isn't criminal, but impregnating a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy should be. A man would have to prove that in addition to taking necessary precautions, he discussed the potential pregnancy with a woman and that she understands she could get pregnant and cannot abort the child. A man should be responsible for his sperm at all times. Impregnating a woman who wants to be pregnant is not a crime. A woman who becomes pregnant even if a man doesn't want it is still the one who is carrying the child to term. She is already "being responsible" for the child.

I am open to any ideas that actually make men as responsible for unwanted pregnancies as women, when women cannot abort.

What if she said she was on birth control so he didn't use a condom but then the birth control didn't work?

[Boruch999]

A woman would have to declare that she would abort her fetus but it is illegal so she is being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

Sure, that won't be abused from day one.

A woman being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy is already being forced into "being responsible" - it isn't like she can offer to transfer the pregnancy to a man. What is the repercussion for a man who impregnates a woman when she is forced to carry to term?

I agreed above that child support from conception seems very reasonable to me.

Intercourse itself isn't criminal, but impregnating a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy should be. A man would have to prove that in addition to taking necessary precautions, he discussed the potential pregnancy with a woman and that she understands she could get pregnant and cannot abort the child. A man should be responsible for his sperm at all times. Impregnating a woman who wants to be pregnant is not a crime. A woman who becomes pregnant even if a man doesn't want it is still the one who is carrying the child to term. She is already "being responsible" for the child.

This would be very difficult to prove.  What do you propose? They both sign affidavits prior to each and every encounter?

I am open to any ideas that actually make men as responsible for unwanted pregnancies as women, when women cannot abort.

As above. But this is a major practical concern.

What if she said she was on birth control so he didn't use a condom but then the birth control didn't work?

How would you propose determining the facts in each case?

[gingyguy]

Sure, that won't be abused from day one.I agreed above that child support from conception seems very reasonable to me.This would be very difficult to prove.  What do you propose? They both sign affidavits prior to each and every encounter?As above. But this is a major practical concern.
How would you propose determining the facts in each case?

lets say there were ta few encounters and the aforementioned affidavit was signed only once  . who does the burden of proof lie on to prove when when she got pregnant?