Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 8350 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #195 on: May 27, 2019, 10:52:41 AM »
Criminalizing unwanted pregnancies means that any man who causes a woman a pregnancy she doesn't want should be legally responsible for more than just child support.  It should not be as harsh a crime as rape - maybe a misdemeanor.  Is there a reason you would oppose this? [I actually do have concerns about this too - every law has negative effects]

Please explain your case of a mutually consensual act where the consequences are criminal for one of the two parties but not the other? Are we only discussing the person who slips off a condom? What about the woman who became pregnant without the man wanting it?

I don't necessarily oppose it. I simply have no clue what you are proposing.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #196 on: May 27, 2019, 11:28:57 AM »
What does that mean? Who decides?

A woman would have to declare that she would abort her fetus but it is illegal so she is being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

Why is he more responsible for the pregnancy than she is?

What if she tells him she wants it and then changes her mind?

What if they both want it and then both change their minds?  Will you criminalize the mind change?

Never mind negatives, your whole idea is incoherent.

A woman being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy is already being forced into "being responsible" - it isn't like she can offer to transfer the pregnancy to a man. What is the repercussion for a man who impregnates a woman when she is forced to carry to term?

Please explain your case of a mutually consensual act where the consequences are criminal for one of the two parties but not the other? Are we only discussing the person who slips off a condom? What about the woman who became pregnant without the man wanting it?

I don't necessarily oppose it. I simply have no clue what you are proposing.

Intercourse itself isn't criminal, but impregnating a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy should be. A man would have to prove that in addition to taking necessary precautions, he discussed the potential pregnancy with a woman and that she understands she could get pregnant and cannot abort the child. A man should be responsible for his sperm at all times. Impregnating a woman who wants to be pregnant is not a crime. A woman who becomes pregnant even if a man doesn't want it is still the one who is carrying the child to term. She is already "being responsible" for the child.

I am open to any ideas that actually make men as responsible for unwanted pregnancies as women, when women cannot abort.




Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #197 on: May 27, 2019, 11:46:55 AM »
A woman would have to declare that she would abort her fetus but it is illegal so she is being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

A woman being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy is already being forced into "being responsible" - it isn't like she can offer to transfer the pregnancy to a man. What is the repercussion for a man who impregnates a woman when she is forced to carry to term?

Intercourse itself isn't criminal, but impregnating a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy should be. A man would have to prove that in addition to taking necessary precautions, he discussed the potential pregnancy with a woman and that she understands she could get pregnant and cannot abort the child. A man should be responsible for his sperm at all times. Impregnating a woman who wants to be pregnant is not a crime. A woman who becomes pregnant even if a man doesn't want it is still the one who is carrying the child to term. She is already "being responsible" for the child.

I am open to any ideas that actually make men as responsible for unwanted pregnancies as women, when women cannot abort.
What if she said she was on birth control so he didn't use a condom but then the birth control didn't work?
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #198 on: May 27, 2019, 12:09:17 PM »
A woman would have to declare that she would abort her fetus but it is illegal so she is being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.
Sure, that won't be abused from day one.
Quote
A woman being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy is already being forced into "being responsible" - it isn't like she can offer to transfer the pregnancy to a man. What is the repercussion for a man who impregnates a woman when she is forced to carry to term?
I agreed above that child support from conception seems very reasonable to me.
Quote
Intercourse itself isn't criminal, but impregnating a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy should be. A man would have to prove that in addition to taking necessary precautions, he discussed the potential pregnancy with a woman and that she understands she could get pregnant and cannot abort the child. A man should be responsible for his sperm at all times. Impregnating a woman who wants to be pregnant is not a crime. A woman who becomes pregnant even if a man doesn't want it is still the one who is carrying the child to term. She is already "being responsible" for the child.
This would be very difficult to prove.  What do you propose? They both sign affidavits prior to each and every encounter?
Quote

I am open to any ideas that actually make men as responsible for unwanted pregnancies as women, when women cannot abort.
As above. But this is a major practical concern.

What if she said she was on birth control so he didn't use a condom but then the birth control didn't work?

How would you propose determining the facts in each case?

Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #199 on: May 27, 2019, 12:36:33 PM »
Sure, that won't be abused from day one.I agreed above that child support from conception seems very reasonable to me.This would be very difficult to prove.  What do you propose? They both sign affidavits prior to each and every encounter?As above. But this is a major practical concern.
How would you propose determining the facts in each case?
lets say there were ta few encounters and the aforementioned affidavit was signed only once  . who does the burden of proof lie on to prove when when she got pregnant?
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #200 on: May 27, 2019, 12:37:28 PM »
What if she said she was on birth control so he didn't use a condom but then the birth control didn't work?

Prove it. Then a man isn't liable.

Sure, that won't be abused from day one.I agreed above that child support from conception seems very reasonable to me.This would be very difficult to prove.  What do you propose? They both sign affidavits prior to each and every encounter?As above. But this is a major practical concern.
How would you propose determining the facts in each case?

You view financial responsibility as being as responsible as a woman now being forced to carry a pregnancy to term? There are many potential short and long term ramifications to pregnancy including many health issues and even death. A man will just deny paternity and then not pay.  Meanwhile, a woman can potentially be on bed rest with no viable way to support herself and may end up with many long term complications from pregnancy (including death).  Which brings another interesting point - who is responsible for the death of a woman who died from pregnancy/childbirth of an unwanted pregnancy?

A man will have to figure out a way to document that did have the discussion and the woman agreed, otherwise he is liable to have an "unwanted pregnancy" claim against him. It should be easier than proving rape in many cases.

All pregnancies should be "unwanted" unless proven otherwise by documentation or the affidavit of the pregnant woman. That puts the legal liability of the man since the medical, health and financial liability is really on the woman.


Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #201 on: May 27, 2019, 12:38:18 PM »
A woman would have to declare that she would abort her fetus but it is illegal so she is being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

A woman being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy is already being forced into "being responsible" - it isn't like she can offer to transfer the pregnancy to a man. What is the repercussion for a man who impregnates a woman when she is forced to carry to term?

Intercourse itself isn't criminal, but impregnating a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy should be. A man would have to prove that in addition to taking necessary precautions, he discussed the potential pregnancy with a woman and that she understands she could get pregnant and cannot abort the child. A man should be responsible for his sperm at all times. Impregnating a woman who wants to be pregnant is not a crime. A woman who becomes pregnant even if a man doesn't want it is still the one who is carrying the child to term. She is already "being responsible" for the child.

I am open to any ideas that actually make men as responsible for unwanted pregnancies as women, when women cannot abort.




It doesn't sound like you thought this one through. This has no objective way of actually working and no chance of withstanding any level of scrutiny.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #202 on: May 27, 2019, 12:42:15 PM »
It doesn't sound like you thought this one through. This has no objective way of actually working and no chance of withstanding any level of scrutiny.

Why? How do you propose we hold men legally responsible for causing unwanted pregnancies?

Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #203 on: May 27, 2019, 12:46:47 PM »
Why? How do you propose we hold men legally responsible for causing unwanted pregnancies?
definitely not the way you want to... anything less than rape ( excluding maybe slipping of a condom is not exclusively the mans fault)
it takes two to tango
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #204 on: May 27, 2019, 12:50:59 PM »
Why? How do you propose we hold men legally responsible for causing unwanted pregnancies?

By criminalizing doing the actions which cause it without the consent of the other party.

How do YOU propose we hold men legally responsible for causing unwanted pregnancies?
Even if there is no proposal at all that does not mean this stands up to scrutiny. This would essentially be forcing every man to prove something which is unprovable or be a criminal. "Prove you are not a criminal"
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 12:57:25 PM by aygart »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #205 on: May 27, 2019, 12:52:11 PM »
Prove it. Then a man isn't liable.
just plain wow!
Which brings another interesting point - who is responsible for the death of a woman who died from pregnancy/childbirth of an unwanted pregnancy?

im truly having a hard time figuring out why its exclusively the mans fault that there was an unwanted pregnancy
All pregnancies should be "unwanted" unless proven otherwise by documentation or the affidavit of the pregnant woman. That puts the legal liability of the man since the medical, health and financial liability is really on the woman.
just plain wow!
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #206 on: May 27, 2019, 12:52:19 PM »
How would you propose determining the facts in each case?
Exactly my point.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #207 on: May 27, 2019, 12:53:54 PM »
Prove it. Then a man isn't liable.
That's utterly ridiculous, how would any man be able to prove what the woman told him before they had sex?
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #208 on: May 27, 2019, 12:54:48 PM »
definitely not the way you want to... anything less than rape ( excluding maybe slipping of a condom is not exclusively the mans fault)
it takes two to tango
To some extent the liability does fall slightly more on the man than the woman.
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Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #209 on: May 27, 2019, 01:00:53 PM »
To some extent the liability does fall slightly more on the man than the woman.
Why ? obviously assuming it was consensual or that the the condom was not slipped off or anything of that sort.
 I see it as being 50-50.
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