Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 20942 times)

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #200 on: May 27, 2019, 12:37:28 PM »
What if she said she was on birth control so he didn't use a condom but then the birth control didn't work?

Prove it. Then a man isn't liable.

Sure, that won't be abused from day one.I agreed above that child support from conception seems very reasonable to me.This would be very difficult to prove.  What do you propose? They both sign affidavits prior to each and every encounter?As above. But this is a major practical concern.
How would you propose determining the facts in each case?

You view financial responsibility as being as responsible as a woman now being forced to carry a pregnancy to term? There are many potential short and long term ramifications to pregnancy including many health issues and even death. A man will just deny paternity and then not pay.  Meanwhile, a woman can potentially be on bed rest with no viable way to support herself and may end up with many long term complications from pregnancy (including death).  Which brings another interesting point - who is responsible for the death of a woman who died from pregnancy/childbirth of an unwanted pregnancy?

A man will have to figure out a way to document that did have the discussion and the woman agreed, otherwise he is liable to have an "unwanted pregnancy" claim against him. It should be easier than proving rape in many cases.

All pregnancies should be "unwanted" unless proven otherwise by documentation or the affidavit of the pregnant woman. That puts the legal liability of the man since the medical, health and financial liability is really on the woman.


Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #201 on: May 27, 2019, 12:38:18 PM »
A woman would have to declare that she would abort her fetus but it is illegal so she is being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

A woman being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy is already being forced into "being responsible" - it isn't like she can offer to transfer the pregnancy to a man. What is the repercussion for a man who impregnates a woman when she is forced to carry to term?

Intercourse itself isn't criminal, but impregnating a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy should be. A man would have to prove that in addition to taking necessary precautions, he discussed the potential pregnancy with a woman and that she understands she could get pregnant and cannot abort the child. A man should be responsible for his sperm at all times. Impregnating a woman who wants to be pregnant is not a crime. A woman who becomes pregnant even if a man doesn't want it is still the one who is carrying the child to term. She is already "being responsible" for the child.

I am open to any ideas that actually make men as responsible for unwanted pregnancies as women, when women cannot abort.




It doesn't sound like you thought this one through. This has no objective way of actually working and no chance of withstanding any level of scrutiny.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #202 on: May 27, 2019, 12:42:15 PM »
It doesn't sound like you thought this one through. This has no objective way of actually working and no chance of withstanding any level of scrutiny.

Why? How do you propose we hold men legally responsible for causing unwanted pregnancies?

Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #203 on: May 27, 2019, 12:46:47 PM »
Why? How do you propose we hold men legally responsible for causing unwanted pregnancies?
definitely not the way you want to... anything less than rape ( excluding maybe slipping of a condom is not exclusively the mans fault)
it takes two to tango
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #204 on: May 27, 2019, 12:50:59 PM »
Why? How do you propose we hold men legally responsible for causing unwanted pregnancies?

By criminalizing doing the actions which cause it without the consent of the other party.

How do YOU propose we hold men legally responsible for causing unwanted pregnancies?
Even if there is no proposal at all that does not mean this stands up to scrutiny. This would essentially be forcing every man to prove something which is unprovable or be a criminal. "Prove you are not a criminal"
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 12:57:25 PM by aygart »
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Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #205 on: May 27, 2019, 12:52:11 PM »
Prove it. Then a man isn't liable.
just plain wow!
Which brings another interesting point - who is responsible for the death of a woman who died from pregnancy/childbirth of an unwanted pregnancy?

im truly having a hard time figuring out why its exclusively the mans fault that there was an unwanted pregnancy
All pregnancies should be "unwanted" unless proven otherwise by documentation or the affidavit of the pregnant woman. That puts the legal liability of the man since the medical, health and financial liability is really on the woman.
just plain wow!
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #206 on: May 27, 2019, 12:52:19 PM »
How would you propose determining the facts in each case?
Exactly my point.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #207 on: May 27, 2019, 12:53:54 PM »
Prove it. Then a man isn't liable.
That's utterly ridiculous, how would any man be able to prove what the woman told him before they had sex?
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #208 on: May 27, 2019, 12:54:48 PM »
definitely not the way you want to... anything less than rape ( excluding maybe slipping of a condom is not exclusively the mans fault)
it takes two to tango
To some extent the liability does fall slightly more on the man than the woman.
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Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #209 on: May 27, 2019, 01:00:53 PM »
To some extent the liability does fall slightly more on the man than the woman.
Why ? obviously assuming it was consensual or that the the condom was not slipped off or anything of that sort.
 I see it as being 50-50.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #210 on: May 27, 2019, 01:03:16 PM »
Why ? obviously assuming it was consensual or that the the condom was not slipped off or anything of that sort.
 I see it as being 50-50.
Mechanically, the woman doesn't do any action to get pregnant while the man can do things to greatly lower the chance of her getting pregnant. I'm not saying it's his fault over hers, just that to some extent he has more control over it than she does.
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Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #211 on: May 27, 2019, 01:04:32 PM »
Mechanically, the woman doesn't do any action to get pregnant while the man can do things to greatly lower the chance of her getting pregnant.
A woman has plenty of things that she can do as well ,  to lower her chances of getting pregnant  . Many of them being OTC
mechanics shouldn't make a difference if it was consensual.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #212 on: May 27, 2019, 01:22:13 PM »
I'm curious how any of you think a man is currently responsible for causing an unwanted pregnancy? Do they carry the pregnancy? Do they take some of the burden of the health risks? Are they legally obligated to care for the woman they impregnated? Are they legally obligated to make sure that if she has other kids or pets or family members she is responsible for that they are taken care of if she cannot take care of them? What happens if she loses her job because she has no more FMLA and therefore cannot pay rent? 

The only obligation that befalls a man is after the baby is born, he and the mother are both financially responsible for the baby based on various factors (where the child lives, what each parent earns etc). As of right now, men are not responsible at all. Nor is there any talk of making them responsible in any way shape or form.

I'm curious what 50-50 legal responsibility means to all of you.

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #213 on: May 27, 2019, 01:29:44 PM »
I'm curious how any of you think a man is currently responsible for causing an unwanted pregnancy? Do they carry the pregnancy? Do they take some of the burden of the health risks? Are they legally obligated to care for the woman they impregnated? Are they legally obligated to make sure that if she has other kids or pets or family members she is responsible for that they are taken care of if she cannot take care of them? What happens if she loses her job because she has no more FMLA and therefore cannot pay rent? 

The only obligation that befalls a man is after the baby is born, he and the mother are both financially responsible for the baby based on various factors (where the child lives, what each parent earns etc). As of right now, men are not responsible at all. Nor is there any talk of making them responsible in any way shape or form.

I'm curious what 50-50 legal responsibility means to all of you.
The first thing to keep in mind here is that it is totally in the woman's power to ensure she does not become pregnant in a consensual relationship. If she did not take those steps there is a strong argument to be made that it is her responsibility. That said, I am all for the father sharing n the financial responsibility of the pregnancy but not necessarily every single far out ramification which he may not have had any way of knowing that he was accepting upon himself.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #214 on: May 27, 2019, 01:41:12 PM »
I'm curious how any of you think a man is currently responsible for causing an unwanted pregnancy? Do they carry the pregnancy? Do they take some of the burden of the health risks? Are they legally obligated to care for the woman they impregnated? Are they legally obligated to make sure that if she has other kids or pets or family members she is responsible for that they are taken care of if she cannot take care of them? What happens if she loses her job because she has no more FMLA and therefore cannot pay rent? 

The only obligation that befalls a man is after the baby is born, he and the mother are both financially responsible for the baby based on various factors (where the child lives, what each parent earns etc). As of right now, men are not responsible at all. Nor is there any talk of making them responsible in any way shape or form.

I'm curious what 50-50 legal responsibility means to all of you.
It makes sense that the man should share financial responsibilities, but upthread you said that abortions should be legal.

Just say it straight out. Say that you favor baby slaying. You want Nazi doctors to vacuum out a tiny breathing soul that never hurt anyone. You want cold blooded murder.

There is no need to hide behind farcical catchphrases like "women's right to choose" and what not. Just call a spade a spade. Say, I believe that a mommy has a right to kill her baby by sucking it out of her belly because it is her body. Say, I believe that people can murder if they so choose.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #215 on: May 27, 2019, 01:42:49 PM »
The first thing to keep in mind here is that it is totally in the woman's power to ensure she does not become pregnant in a consensual relationship. If she did not take those steps there is a strong argument to be made that it is her responsibility. That said, I am all for the father sharing n the financial responsibility of the pregnancy but not necessarily every single far out ramification which he may not have had any way of knowing that he was accepting upon himself.

Bedrest and losing your job is a very normal ramification of pregnancy. If you agree that pregnancy is a normal outcome of intercourse and should be assumed, so should a woman being unable to take care of herself or her own legal obligations.

Right now, a woman has 100% of the responsibility for the pregnancy and it is her choice how to handle the ramifications of it. If you remove her choice to handle the ramifications of it, then what else are you doing to help her?  Everyone above seems horrified at the idea of a man actually being responsible in some way (other than financially).

I was going to make a point about paternity testing in utero being dangerous via amniocentesis, but I just read about non-invasive prenatal paternity testing. Very interesting. 

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #216 on: May 27, 2019, 01:45:30 PM »
If you remove her choice to handle the ramifications of it, then what else are you doing to help her?
Can you try to think of a better way to help her than killing another human being?

Because that is a very unfair way of helping.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #217 on: May 27, 2019, 02:00:57 PM »
It makes sense that the man should share financial responsibilities, but upthread you said that abortions should be legal.

Just say it straight out. Say that you favor baby slaying. You want Nazi doctors to vacuum out a tiny breathing soul that never hurt anyone. You want cold blooded murder.

There is no need to hide behind farcical catchphrases like "women's right to choose" and what not. Just call a spade a spade. Say, I believe that a mommy has a right to kill her baby by sucking it out of her belly because it is her body. Say, I believe that people can murder if they so choose.
Just for the record, fetuses don't breathe.
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Offline S209

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #218 on: May 27, 2019, 02:04:20 PM »
Just for the record, fetuses don't breathe.
They do breathe amniotic fluid, although not air like most other humans
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #219 on: May 27, 2019, 02:15:14 PM »
Bedrest and losing your job is a very normal ramification of pregnancy. If you agree that pregnancy is a normal outcome of intercourse and should be assumed, so should a woman being unable to take care of herself or her own legal obligations.

Right now, a woman has 100% of the responsibility for the pregnancy and it is her choice how to handle the ramifications of it. If you remove her choice to handle the ramifications of it, then what else are you doing to help her?  Everyone above seems horrified at the idea of a man actually being responsible in some way (other than financially).

I was going to make a point about paternity testing in utero being dangerous via amniocentesis, but I just read about non-invasive prenatal paternity testing. Very interesting. 
Interesting. I only saw people horrified at the idea of undefendable criminal culpability. Do you have any other way for him to take responsibility? SHould he do bedrest for her?
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