Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 8393 times)

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #210 on: May 27, 2019, 01:03:16 PM »
Why ? obviously assuming it was consensual or that the the condom was not slipped off or anything of that sort.
 I see it as being 50-50.
Mechanically, the woman doesn't do any action to get pregnant while the man can do things to greatly lower the chance of her getting pregnant. I'm not saying it's his fault over hers, just that to some extent he has more control over it than she does.
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Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #211 on: May 27, 2019, 01:04:32 PM »
Mechanically, the woman doesn't do any action to get pregnant while the man can do things to greatly lower the chance of her getting pregnant.
A woman has plenty of things that she can do as well ,  to lower her chances of getting pregnant  . Many of them being OTC
mechanics shouldn't make a difference if it was consensual.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #212 on: May 27, 2019, 01:22:13 PM »
I'm curious how any of you think a man is currently responsible for causing an unwanted pregnancy? Do they carry the pregnancy? Do they take some of the burden of the health risks? Are they legally obligated to care for the woman they impregnated? Are they legally obligated to make sure that if she has other kids or pets or family members she is responsible for that they are taken care of if she cannot take care of them? What happens if she loses her job because she has no more FMLA and therefore cannot pay rent? 

The only obligation that befalls a man is after the baby is born, he and the mother are both financially responsible for the baby based on various factors (where the child lives, what each parent earns etc). As of right now, men are not responsible at all. Nor is there any talk of making them responsible in any way shape or form.

I'm curious what 50-50 legal responsibility means to all of you.

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #213 on: May 27, 2019, 01:29:44 PM »
I'm curious how any of you think a man is currently responsible for causing an unwanted pregnancy? Do they carry the pregnancy? Do they take some of the burden of the health risks? Are they legally obligated to care for the woman they impregnated? Are they legally obligated to make sure that if she has other kids or pets or family members she is responsible for that they are taken care of if she cannot take care of them? What happens if she loses her job because she has no more FMLA and therefore cannot pay rent? 

The only obligation that befalls a man is after the baby is born, he and the mother are both financially responsible for the baby based on various factors (where the child lives, what each parent earns etc). As of right now, men are not responsible at all. Nor is there any talk of making them responsible in any way shape or form.

I'm curious what 50-50 legal responsibility means to all of you.
The first thing to keep in mind here is that it is totally in the woman's power to ensure she does not become pregnant in a consensual relationship. If she did not take those steps there is a strong argument to be made that it is her responsibility. That said, I am all for the father sharing n the financial responsibility of the pregnancy but not necessarily every single far out ramification which he may not have had any way of knowing that he was accepting upon himself.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #214 on: May 27, 2019, 01:41:12 PM »
I'm curious how any of you think a man is currently responsible for causing an unwanted pregnancy? Do they carry the pregnancy? Do they take some of the burden of the health risks? Are they legally obligated to care for the woman they impregnated? Are they legally obligated to make sure that if she has other kids or pets or family members she is responsible for that they are taken care of if she cannot take care of them? What happens if she loses her job because she has no more FMLA and therefore cannot pay rent? 

The only obligation that befalls a man is after the baby is born, he and the mother are both financially responsible for the baby based on various factors (where the child lives, what each parent earns etc). As of right now, men are not responsible at all. Nor is there any talk of making them responsible in any way shape or form.

I'm curious what 50-50 legal responsibility means to all of you.
It makes sense that the man should share financial responsibilities, but upthread you said that abortions should be legal.

Just say it straight out. Say that you favor baby slaying. You want Nazi doctors to vacuum out a tiny breathing soul that never hurt anyone. You want cold blooded murder.

There is no need to hide behind farcical catchphrases like "women's right to choose" and what not. Just call a spade a spade. Say, I believe that a mommy has a right to kill her baby by sucking it out of her belly because it is her body. Say, I believe that people can murder if they so choose.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #215 on: May 27, 2019, 01:42:49 PM »
The first thing to keep in mind here is that it is totally in the woman's power to ensure she does not become pregnant in a consensual relationship. If she did not take those steps there is a strong argument to be made that it is her responsibility. That said, I am all for the father sharing n the financial responsibility of the pregnancy but not necessarily every single far out ramification which he may not have had any way of knowing that he was accepting upon himself.

Bedrest and losing your job is a very normal ramification of pregnancy. If you agree that pregnancy is a normal outcome of intercourse and should be assumed, so should a woman being unable to take care of herself or her own legal obligations.

Right now, a woman has 100% of the responsibility for the pregnancy and it is her choice how to handle the ramifications of it. If you remove her choice to handle the ramifications of it, then what else are you doing to help her?  Everyone above seems horrified at the idea of a man actually being responsible in some way (other than financially).

I was going to make a point about paternity testing in utero being dangerous via amniocentesis, but I just read about non-invasive prenatal paternity testing. Very interesting. 

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #216 on: May 27, 2019, 01:45:30 PM »
If you remove her choice to handle the ramifications of it, then what else are you doing to help her?
Can you try to think of a better way to help her than killing another human being?

Because that is a very unfair way of helping.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #217 on: May 27, 2019, 02:00:57 PM »
It makes sense that the man should share financial responsibilities, but upthread you said that abortions should be legal.

Just say it straight out. Say that you favor baby slaying. You want Nazi doctors to vacuum out a tiny breathing soul that never hurt anyone. You want cold blooded murder.

There is no need to hide behind farcical catchphrases like "women's right to choose" and what not. Just call a spade a spade. Say, I believe that a mommy has a right to kill her baby by sucking it out of her belly because it is her body. Say, I believe that people can murder if they so choose.
Just for the record, fetuses don't breathe.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline S209

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #218 on: May 27, 2019, 02:04:20 PM »
Just for the record, fetuses don't breathe.
They do breathe amniotic fluid, although not air like most other humans
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #219 on: May 27, 2019, 02:15:14 PM »
Bedrest and losing your job is a very normal ramification of pregnancy. If you agree that pregnancy is a normal outcome of intercourse and should be assumed, so should a woman being unable to take care of herself or her own legal obligations.

Right now, a woman has 100% of the responsibility for the pregnancy and it is her choice how to handle the ramifications of it. If you remove her choice to handle the ramifications of it, then what else are you doing to help her?  Everyone above seems horrified at the idea of a man actually being responsible in some way (other than financially).

I was going to make a point about paternity testing in utero being dangerous via amniocentesis, but I just read about non-invasive prenatal paternity testing. Very interesting. 
Interesting. I only saw people horrified at the idea of undefendable criminal culpability. Do you have any other way for him to take responsibility? SHould he do bedrest for her?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline S209

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #220 on: May 27, 2019, 02:36:43 PM »
Bedrest and losing your job is a very normal ramification of pregnancy. If you agree that pregnancy is a normal outcome of intercourse and should be assumed, so should a woman being unable to take care of herself or her own legal obligations.

Right now, a woman has 100% of the responsibility for the pregnancy and it is her choice how to handle the ramifications of it. If you remove her choice to handle the ramifications of it, then what else are you doing to help her?  Everyone above seems horrified at the idea of a man actually being responsible in some way (other than financially).

I was going to make a point about paternity testing in utero being dangerous via amniocentesis, but I just read about non-invasive prenatal paternity testing. Very interesting.
Throughout this entire thread your argument seems predicated on justice and evening the social score somehow. But life is not so simple. While we may have a duty and obligation to help those who are suffering and in need, that also extends to a fetus to some level, although there is certainly gray area as it relates to a full fledged human, equally as complex as other great moral questions.

Saying that abortion should be legal (it depends what you mean when you say you are for legalization, but blanket abortion allowance even includes killing and causing pain to viable fetuses) because it somehow gives a woman equal footing, and that a man cannot have an opinion because he does not have to live through it, is not valid logically or legally. No judge or legislator is required to live through the exact circumstances as those to whom the laws are applied, they need merely to reach a reasonable, logical, impartial, cerebral conclusion.

Women suffering is bad. Fetus killing is bad. Both of these statements can be true at once. Men can (should?) shoulder more of the burden of child bearing and rearing, despite the fact that biology dictates otherwise. That in no way condones using whatever means necessary to try to even the score.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #221 on: May 27, 2019, 04:55:44 PM »
Interesting. I only saw people horrified at the idea of undefendable criminal culpability. Do you have any other way for him to take responsibility? SHould he do bedrest for her?

No, but he could be mandated to provide a certain number of community service hours to her based on her condition. An easier pregnancy with no bedrest - minimal. A harder pregnancy with full bedrest would require additional hours.

Throughout this entire thread your argument seems predicated on justice and evening the social score somehow. But life is not so simple. While we may have a duty and obligation to help those who are suffering and in need, that also extends to a fetus to some level, although there is certainly gray area as it relates to a full fledged human, equally as complex as other great moral questions.

Saying that abortion should be legal (it depends what you mean when you say you are for legalization, but blanket abortion allowance even includes killing and causing pain to viable fetuses) because it somehow gives a woman equal footing, and that a man cannot have an opinion because he does not have to live through it, is not valid logically or legally. No judge or legislator is required to live through the exact circumstances as those to whom the laws are applied, they need merely to reach a reasonable, logical, impartial, cerebral conclusion.

Women suffering is bad. Fetus killing is bad. Both of these statements can be true at once. Men can (should?) shoulder more of the burden of child bearing and rearing, despite the fact that biology dictates otherwise. That in no way condones using whatever means necessary to try to even the score.

While abortion is legal, it makes sense for a woman to take full responsibility for the pregnancy and have a man be responsible from the birth on because abortion is currently viewed as a woman's medical procedure based on her health/welfare etc. Once that option is taken from her, then a man should be responsible at an earlier point as it no longer is about her health anymore but now about the fetus and the fetus is half his responsibility.


Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #222 on: May 27, 2019, 06:26:46 PM »
While abortion is legal, it makes sense for a woman to take full responsibility for the pregnancy and have a man be responsible from the birth on because abortion is currently viewed as a woman's medical procedure based on her health/welfare etc. Once that option is taken from her, then a man should be responsible at an earlier point as it no longer is about her health anymore but now about the fetus and the fetus is half his responsibility.
I think that's valid, you just have to come up with rational ways to make men responsible, making it criminal to have an unwanted pregnancy is just not a viable solution to the problem.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #223 on: May 27, 2019, 07:37:19 PM »
No, but he could be mandated to provide a certain number of community service hours to her based on her condition. An easier pregnancy with no bedrest - minimal. A harder pregnancy with full bedrest would require additional hours.

While abortion is legal, it makes sense for a woman to take full responsibility for the pregnancy and have a man be responsible from the birth on because abortion is currently viewed as a woman's medical procedure based on her health/welfare etc. Once that option is taken from her, then a man should be responsible at an earlier point as it no longer is about her health anymore but now about the fetus and the fetus is half his responsibility.



I have a feeling that 95 % or more of women who are not in a meaningful relationship would turn down these community service hours. You are grasping at air to think of something that really makes very little sense.

Don't forget that she had the option to prevent the pregnancy unilaterally.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #224 on: May 27, 2019, 08:49:52 PM »
The idea that a law or two can address the natural inbalance in the consequences of sex is straight out of a dystopian sci-fi story.