Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 9638 times)

Offline yelped

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #270 on: June 02, 2019, 12:26:37 AM »
What political positions? Like the position of some clown on the radio? No, I couldn't care less.
So maybe the clown is on TV or the internet.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #271 on: June 02, 2019, 12:30:03 AM »
So maybe the clown is on TV or the internet.
no & no
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #272 on: June 02, 2019, 12:37:43 AM »
umm, the halacha is clear so I'm right regardless.

As soon as you wrote this
While we recognize that she underwent a horrific, life-altering experience, we need to ignore that right now so that we don't destroy in innocent life.

I realized that you are clueless regarding practical halacha and that your statements here are not reflection of any such knowledge.. I have actually spoken with some very respected poskim and found that halacha l'maase is much more nuanced as it almost always is. I have been very studiously avoiding giving any opinion here specifically because of my discussions with these poskim and would not find this to be the proper forum for any discussion at all of the nuances including via PM.

You strike me as belonging to that group.
LOL. I think I will let my reputation here speak for itself about how totally laughable that statement is.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #273 on: June 02, 2019, 12:49:26 AM »
The conversation changes past viability because you could make the argument that the child should be induced. But the reasons people have later term abortions are generally different than earlier. I think it is a very different conversation. Once you are past viability, there are different ethical questions that arise.

I don't understand your second point. Are you saying that people believe a fetus before viability is a fully functioning baby? If so, why not just induce women at 8 weeks and see if the baby survives? Or am I misunderstanding your position?

Human is the species. You are human as a fetus. Then you change into a human baby, human toddler, human child, human teenager, human adult. You are always human from the moment of conception. 



A big question is at which point does it become its own living entity?
 
  •        Conception
  •        Implantation
  •        Has its own heartbeat
  •        Takes on the form of a baby
  •        Viability with intervention
  •        Viability on its own
  •        Birth
  • o   Beginning of labor
  • o   Various levels of dilation
  • o   Crowning
  • o   Various levels of delivery
  • o   Fully born
  •        Various stages of development post birth
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #274 on: June 02, 2019, 12:50:32 AM »
As soon as you wrote thisI realized that you are clueless regarding practical halacha and that your statements here are not reflection of any such knowledge.. I have actually spoken with some very respected poskim and found that halacha l'maase is much more nuanced as it almost always is. I have been very studiously avoiding giving any opinion here specifically because of my discussions with these poskim and would not find this to be the proper forum for any discussion at all of the nuances including via PM.
LOL. I think I will let my reputation here speak for itself about how totally laughable that statement is.
If you actually looked at what I was responding to there you would see that I highlighted some of the reasons presented for killing a baby which were ludicrous. Yes, we need to ignore such a person so they don't kill their baby. And by the way, most abortion cases are based on selfish reasons.

A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline yelped

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #275 on: June 02, 2019, 12:53:00 AM »
Keep on going... ::)

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #276 on: June 02, 2019, 12:54:00 AM »
If you actually looked at what I was responding to there you would see that I highlighted some of the reasons presented for killing a baby which were ludicrous. Yes, we need to ignore such a person so they don't kill their baby. And by the way, most abortion cases are based on selfish reasons.


That was not the only such statement you made and is just as wrong in the context you wrote it. Yes it is true that most are for selfish reasons.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #277 on: June 02, 2019, 01:05:27 AM »
That was not the only such statement you made and is just as wrong in the context you wrote it. Yes it is true that most are for selfish reasons.

So we should not ignore a mother that wants to kill her baby despite the fact that abortions are generally murder done for selfish reasons?

I'm sorry if you feel the word ignore is offensive to women, but it isn't about offending women. It's about offending murderers.   
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline yelped

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #278 on: June 02, 2019, 01:06:17 AM »
Just saying, you're not R'Avigdor Miller.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #279 on: June 02, 2019, 01:09:31 AM »
LOL. You make it sound like it's a question of where to light Chanuka neiros.
+100
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #280 on: June 02, 2019, 01:14:14 AM »
So we should not ignore a mother that wants to kill her baby despite the fact that abortions are generally murder done for selfish reasons?

I'm sorry if you feel the word ignore is offensive to women, but it isn't about offending women. It's about offending murderers.   
Why does this that they are generally done for selfish reasons mean that anyone should be ignored after having gone through a horrific life-altering experience?

Offensive to women? You need to take a deep breath. You are sounding more and more ridiculous as you go along. Some of these things are just further illustration how you are twisting the torah to meet your views and not the other way around.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #281 on: June 02, 2019, 01:16:14 AM »
LOL. You make it sound like it's a question of where to light Chanuka neiros.
Just the opposite. It is because it involves so many far ranging ramifications that much more nuance is required.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #282 on: June 02, 2019, 01:19:45 AM »
Why does this that they are generally done for selfish reasons mean that anyone should be ignored after having gone through a horrific life-altering experience?

Offensive to women? You need to take a deep breath. You are sounding more and more ridiculous as you go along. Some of these things are just further illustration how you are twisting the torah to meet your views and not the other way around.
OMG. Now I see what's eating you. You were offended at the notion that a woman should be ignored when she wants to kill her baby considering everything she went through.

If that's what it is, then argument accepted. There may be more effective ways to tackle things than ignoring. I was simply stressing my point.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #283 on: June 02, 2019, 01:25:13 AM »
OMG. Now I see what's eating you. You were offended at the notion that a woman should be ignored when she wants to kill her baby considering everything she went through.

If that's what it is, then argument accepted. There may be more effective ways to tackle things than ignoring. I was simply stressing my point.
This is going straight over your head, or maybe it is hitting you in the face and you are just ignoring it. It seems you are clueless of practical halacha.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online chinagel

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #284 on: June 02, 2019, 01:39:09 AM »
Just the opposite. It is because it involves so many far ranging ramifications that much more nuance is required.
That was my point.