Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 22118 times)

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #280 on: June 02, 2019, 01:14:14 AM »
So we should not ignore a mother that wants to kill her baby despite the fact that abortions are generally murder done for selfish reasons?

I'm sorry if you feel the word ignore is offensive to women, but it isn't about offending women. It's about offending murderers.   
Why does this that they are generally done for selfish reasons mean that anyone should be ignored after having gone through a horrific life-altering experience?

Offensive to women? You need to take a deep breath. You are sounding more and more ridiculous as you go along. Some of these things are just further illustration how you are twisting the torah to meet your views and not the other way around.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #281 on: June 02, 2019, 01:16:14 AM »
LOL. You make it sound like it's a question of where to light Chanuka neiros.
Just the opposite. It is because it involves so many far ranging ramifications that much more nuance is required.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #282 on: June 02, 2019, 01:19:45 AM »
Why does this that they are generally done for selfish reasons mean that anyone should be ignored after having gone through a horrific life-altering experience?

Offensive to women? You need to take a deep breath. You are sounding more and more ridiculous as you go along. Some of these things are just further illustration how you are twisting the torah to meet your views and not the other way around.
OMG. Now I see what's eating you. You were offended at the notion that a woman should be ignored when she wants to kill her baby considering everything she went through.

If that's what it is, then argument accepted. There may be more effective ways to tackle things than ignoring. I was simply stressing my point.
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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #283 on: June 02, 2019, 01:25:13 AM »
OMG. Now I see what's eating you. You were offended at the notion that a woman should be ignored when she wants to kill her baby considering everything she went through.

If that's what it is, then argument accepted. There may be more effective ways to tackle things than ignoring. I was simply stressing my point.
This is going straight over your head, or maybe it is hitting you in the face and you are just ignoring it. It seems you are clueless of practical halacha.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chinagel

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #284 on: June 02, 2019, 01:39:09 AM »
Just the opposite. It is because it involves so many far ranging ramifications that much more nuance is required.
That was my point.

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #285 on: June 02, 2019, 01:40:58 AM »
That was my point.
Okay. Then my understan ding is that you would be in agreement with @mmgfarb
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Offline chinagel

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #286 on: June 02, 2019, 01:53:46 AM »
Okay. Then my understan ding is that you would be in agreement with @mmgfarb
I don't think that every posek who gives a psak on such a question should be relied on unless he is in a league like R' Moshe or he is your rebbi muvhak. We find that with a question like shiurim, R Chaim Naeh is considered an opinion against the Chazon Ish, while I don't think most people would consider his opinion against the Chazon Ish if it was a question of eishes ish. That was my main contention.
Also, the idea that "everyone should mind their own business" when you are discussing potential murder, I didn't think is very applicable.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #287 on: June 02, 2019, 04:09:56 AM »
The fact is that your views of free rights etc. all stem from a liberal mindset which doesn't amount to anything.
Actually, my views about free rights come from a conservative/libertarian mindset but regardless, telling someone that theirs views don't amount to anything because you think that you disagree with that person is a great way to have a meaningful debate. I think we can all tell at this point though that a meaningful nuanced debate is not your intention here.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #288 on: June 02, 2019, 04:11:28 AM »
Also, the idea that "everyone should mind their own business" when you are discussing potential murder, I didn't think is very applicable.
I never said that, I just took exception to what I felt was someone twisting halacha into something that wasn't Torah in order to fit their political views.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #289 on: June 02, 2019, 04:18:52 AM »
I don't think that every posek who gives a psak on such a question should be relied on unless he is in a league like R' Moshe or he is your rebbi muvhak. We find that with a question like shiurim, R Chaim Naeh is considered an opinion against the Chazon Ish, while I don't think most people would consider his opinion against the Chazon Ish if it was a question of eishes ish. That was my main contention.
That is a discussion that is really beyond the scope of this forum.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline chinagel

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #290 on: June 02, 2019, 08:52:56 AM »
I never said that, I just took exception to what I felt was someone twisting halacha into something that wasn't Torah in order to fit their political views.
If that was your point, then we are in agreement.

Offline chinagel

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #291 on: June 02, 2019, 09:23:04 AM »
That is a discussion that is really beyond the scope of this forum.
Pretty much sums up this thread.

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #292 on: June 02, 2019, 09:38:09 AM »


Every single posek agrees that standard abortion is murder.

This is not so simple even though all agree that abortion for convenience is forbidden.

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #293 on: June 02, 2019, 09:40:52 AM »



Even in specific cases the majority insist that it is strictly forbidden.

This is vague as to what you consider to be specific cases, but if your intent here is that most insist that it is forbidden from conception no matter the circumstances then please bring the sources for this assertion.

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #294 on: June 02, 2019, 09:41:44 AM »
Pretty much sums up this thread.
Lol, wouldn't that sum up all of JS?
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #295 on: June 02, 2019, 11:17:36 AM »
Actually, my views about free rights come from a conservative/libertarian mindset
Proving my point.

but regardless, telling someone that theirs views don't amount to anything because you think that you disagree with that person is a great way to have a meaningful debate. I think we can all tell at this point though that a meaningful nuanced debate is not your intention here.

Actually it was a larger idea. Some things fit much better in the realm of personal opinion than others. For example. your personal view on taxation amounts to more than your personal opinion on carrying on Shabbos or the obligation of a married woman to cover her hair.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #296 on: June 02, 2019, 11:19:05 AM »
This is not so simple even though all agree that abortion for convenience is forbidden.
that's what the vast majority of abortions are.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #297 on: June 02, 2019, 11:20:38 AM »
This is vague as to what you consider to be specific cases, but if your intent here is that most insist that it is forbidden from conception no matter the circumstances then please bring the sources for this assertion.
Not my point. I'm not convinced that you are as well versed as you consider yourself to be.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #298 on: June 02, 2019, 11:26:09 AM »
That is a discussion that is really beyond the scope of this forum.
Perhaps but his point is well taken and should be emphasized throughout any such discussion.

World renown Halachic heavyweights amount to much more than just any dissenting view. And that's even without accounting
for the majority opinion.

I know this can turn into a whole discussion about who's who which I definitely want to avoid, but the idea is 100% true.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #299 on: June 02, 2019, 11:48:01 AM »
Proving my point.
Contradict yourself much?
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy