Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 8957 times)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6822
  • Total likes: 1530
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #285 on: June 02, 2019, 01:40:58 AM »
That was my point.
Okay. Then my understan ding is that you would be in agreement with @mmgfarb
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 2990
  • Total likes: 109
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #286 on: June 02, 2019, 01:53:46 AM »
Okay. Then my understan ding is that you would be in agreement with @mmgfarb
I don't think that every posek who gives a psak on such a question should be relied on unless he is in a league like R' Moshe or he is your rebbi muvhak. We find that with a question like shiurim, R Chaim Naeh is considered an opinion against the Chazon Ish, while I don't think most people would consider his opinion against the Chazon Ish if it was a question of eishes ish. That was my main contention.
Also, the idea that "everyone should mind their own business" when you are discussing potential murder, I didn't think is very applicable.

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7567
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #287 on: June 02, 2019, 04:09:56 AM »
The fact is that your views of free rights etc. all stem from a liberal mindset which doesn't amount to anything.
Actually, my views about free rights come from a conservative/libertarian mindset but regardless, telling someone that theirs views don't amount to anything because you think that you disagree with that person is a great way to have a meaningful debate. I think we can all tell at this point though that a meaningful nuanced debate is not your intention here.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7567
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #288 on: June 02, 2019, 04:11:28 AM »
Also, the idea that "everyone should mind their own business" when you are discussing potential murder, I didn't think is very applicable.
I never said that, I just took exception to what I felt was someone twisting halacha into something that wasn't Torah in order to fit their political views.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7567
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #289 on: June 02, 2019, 04:18:52 AM »
I don't think that every posek who gives a psak on such a question should be relied on unless he is in a league like R' Moshe or he is your rebbi muvhak. We find that with a question like shiurim, R Chaim Naeh is considered an opinion against the Chazon Ish, while I don't think most people would consider his opinion against the Chazon Ish if it was a question of eishes ish. That was my main contention.
That is a discussion that is really beyond the scope of this forum.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 2990
  • Total likes: 109
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #290 on: June 02, 2019, 08:52:56 AM »
I never said that, I just took exception to what I felt was someone twisting halacha into something that wasn't Torah in order to fit their political views.
If that was your point, then we are in agreement.

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 2990
  • Total likes: 109
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #291 on: June 02, 2019, 09:23:04 AM »
That is a discussion that is really beyond the scope of this forum.
Pretty much sums up this thread.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6822
  • Total likes: 1530
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #292 on: June 02, 2019, 09:38:09 AM »


Every single posek agrees that standard abortion is murder.

This is not so simple even though all agree that abortion for convenience is forbidden.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6822
  • Total likes: 1530
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #293 on: June 02, 2019, 09:40:52 AM »



Even in specific cases the majority insist that it is strictly forbidden.

This is vague as to what you consider to be specific cases, but if your intent here is that most insist that it is forbidden from conception no matter the circumstances then please bring the sources for this assertion.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7567
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #294 on: June 02, 2019, 09:41:44 AM »
Pretty much sums up this thread.
Lol, wouldn't that sum up all of JS?
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 372
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #295 on: June 02, 2019, 11:17:36 AM »
Actually, my views about free rights come from a conservative/libertarian mindset
Proving my point.

but regardless, telling someone that theirs views don't amount to anything because you think that you disagree with that person is a great way to have a meaningful debate. I think we can all tell at this point though that a meaningful nuanced debate is not your intention here.

Actually it was a larger idea. Some things fit much better in the realm of personal opinion than others. For example. your personal view on taxation amounts to more than your personal opinion on carrying on Shabbos or the obligation of a married woman to cover her hair.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 372
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #296 on: June 02, 2019, 11:19:05 AM »
This is not so simple even though all agree that abortion for convenience is forbidden.
that's what the vast majority of abortions are.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 372
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #297 on: June 02, 2019, 11:20:38 AM »
This is vague as to what you consider to be specific cases, but if your intent here is that most insist that it is forbidden from conception no matter the circumstances then please bring the sources for this assertion.
Not my point. I'm not convinced that you are as well versed as you consider yourself to be.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 372
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #298 on: June 02, 2019, 11:26:09 AM »
That is a discussion that is really beyond the scope of this forum.
Perhaps but his point is well taken and should be emphasized throughout any such discussion.

World renown Halachic heavyweights amount to much more than just any dissenting view. And that's even without accounting
for the majority opinion.

I know this can turn into a whole discussion about who's who which I definitely want to avoid, but the idea is 100% true.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7567
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #299 on: June 02, 2019, 11:48:01 AM »
Proving my point.
Contradict yourself much?
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy