Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 8947 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #315 on: June 02, 2019, 12:28:21 PM »
Mostly the liberal outlook of many on this thread which colors their opinion even on issues that are primarily halachic.

Furthermore, the view that any minority opinion carries equal weight against a majority opinion, particularly when world renown
halachic heavyweights are on the other side.

That is actually indicative of someone pushing a liberal agenda, not someone serious about what the Torah has to say on the topic.
So i am right. Okay. This from someone quitting Google as a source.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #316 on: June 02, 2019, 12:39:53 PM »
So i am right. Okay. This from someone quitting Google as a source.
Happy to reiterate. I said if you want confirmation about what the majority opinion is, which includes the heavy weight poskim, feel free to google. 
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #317 on: June 02, 2019, 12:42:08 PM »
Happy to reiterate. I said if you want confirmation about what the majority opinion is, which includes the heavy weight poskim, feel free to google.
To repeat the question you have been ignoring.
Just to be clear,are there any cases other than sakonas nefoshos where you are feeling abortions can be permitted any time after conception?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #318 on: June 02, 2019, 12:46:14 PM »
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #319 on: June 02, 2019, 01:04:41 PM »
To repeat the question you have been ignoring.
I've been ignoring, because unlike you I'm wary of getting into the fine details of such a sensitive and weighty issue on a public forum. The fact that it doesn't bother you is not my fault. That said, I'm happy to keep on stating that in general abortion is murder as per the psak of leading Poskim and that I'm overjoyed that some states are finally taking a serious stand against it.



 
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #320 on: June 02, 2019, 02:20:54 PM »
I've been ignoring, because unlike you I'm wary of getting into the fine details of such a sensitive and weighty issue on a public forum. The fact that it doesn't bother you is not my fault. That said, I'm happy to keep on stating that in general abortion is murder as per the psak of leading Poskim and that I'm overjoyed that some states are finally taking a serious stand against it.



 

Well okay then....

I guess its a good thing that there are those who care about the actual ramifications of things over taking a stand. This isn't the first time we have disagreed over that.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 02:44:43 PM by aygart »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #321 on: June 03, 2019, 06:10:36 AM »
Fetus's don't exist during the Plan B timing. Plan B works by blocking the sperm from accessing the egg. Sperm can live for about 5 days before either dying or fertilizing. Plan B is not an abortion as it would only work pre-fertilization. If you are going to try to talk about abortion regulations, it is a good idea to understand basic biology first. So while Plan B is only effective for 5 days, once the egg is fertilized (which could happen much faster depending on the woman's ovulation cycle), it is useless.

I understand the biology of Plan B. Do you understand that there are pro-life groups who are against Plan B?  It is definitely part of the conversation. Perhaps I should have said "from sperm deposit to the end of Plan B timing."

You are so busy arguing that you don't even know what you are arguing about.

I don't understand what you mean. I think abortions should be safe and legal and we should regulate other ways to reduce the need for abortions. I think the conversation switches once a fetus can survive on its own outside the womb, although I still think that it should be left to the woman and her doctor regarding medical ethics rather than law. The timelines that I think are relevant are those I listed, although viability is not really defined well.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 06:33:39 AM by saw50st8 »

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #322 on: June 03, 2019, 07:03:50 AM »
I understand the biology of Plan B. Do you understand that there are pro-life groups who are against Plan B?  It is definitely part of the conversation. Perhaps I should have said "from sperm deposit to the end of Plan B timing."

I don't understand what you mean. I think abortions should be safe and legal and we should regulate other ways to reduce the need for abortions. I think the conversation switches once a fetus can survive on its own outside the womb, although I still think that it should be left to the woman and her doctor regarding medical ethics rather than law. The timelines that I think are relevant are those I listed, although viability is not really defined well.
If people are against Plan B, than this has nothing to do with life. Pro lifers love to trumpet that the fetus is a   biologically distinct entity, which is patently false during so called "Plan B timing".

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #323 on: June 03, 2019, 07:11:29 AM »
I understand the biology of Plan B. Do you understand that there are pro-life groups who are against Plan B?  It is definitely part of the conversation. Perhaps I should have said "from sperm deposit to the end of Plan B timing."
Being anti Plan B is a purely Christian idea.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Online zh cohen

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #324 on: June 03, 2019, 08:05:46 AM »
Being anti Plan B is a purely Christian idea.

Huh? The idea that sex and procreation should not be disassociated is definitely a Jewish idea.

Unless you meant to say that considering Plan B as abortion is a Christian idea.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #325 on: June 03, 2019, 08:15:38 AM »
If people are against Plan B, than this has nothing to do with life. Pro lifers love to trumpet that the fetus is a   biologically distinct entity, which is patently false during so called "Plan B timing".
Being anti Plan B is a purely Christian idea.

Yes but so much of the anti-abortion lobby is purely Christian. Catholics have zero tolerance for abortion even for saving the life of the mother. No one is trying to regulate based on halacha, nor should we be advocating for that.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #326 on: June 03, 2019, 08:49:05 AM »

One last thing.  in the WaPo article they quote Dr Jennifer Gunter explaining a situation where abortion is safer than delivery.

"A good example is a woman at 26 weeks who needs to be delivered for her blood pressure that is the cure, delivery. However, because of her high-blood pressure fetal development has been affected and her fetus is estimated to weigh 300 g, which means it can not live after delivery. She will be offered an abortion if there is a skilled provider. This is safer for her and her uterus than a delivery."

This is a staple of abortionists attempts to justify abortion.  Unfortunately doctors cannot know which babies will make it and which won't. This recent news article shows what a lie it is.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/allthemoms/2019/05/29/worlds-smallest-baby-goes-home-now-weighs-more-than-5-pounds/1276867001/

She was born at 23 weeks at 8.6 oz which is significantly less that 300g. 

Also in the article:
"It's pretty incredible that baby Seybie is thriving. A 2015 report published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) found that premature babies born at 23 weeks had a survival rate of 33%."

 survival rate of 33% ≠ can not live after delivery

It is also interesting to note that Seybie was delivered early because her mother was suffering from the very condition Dr. Gunter used in her example for when an abortion is necessary to save the mothers life.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #327 on: June 03, 2019, 08:55:02 AM »
Yes but so much of the anti-abortion lobby is purely Christian. Catholics have zero tolerance for abortion even for saving the life of the mother. No one is trying to regulate based on halacha, nor should we be advocating for that.

Is this true? It doesn't seem so clear cut.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #328 on: June 03, 2019, 08:55:32 AM »
Huh? The idea that sex and procreation should not be disassociated is definitely a Jewish idea.

Unless you meant to say that considering Plan B as abortion is a Christian idea.

+1

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #329 on: June 03, 2019, 09:10:30 AM »
Huh? The idea that sex and procreation should not be disassociated is definitely a Jewish idea.

Unless you meant to say that considering Plan B as abortion is a Christian idea.

What on earth does abortion have to do with associating sex and procreation? Obviously, Halacha has opinions on contraception (which is a far more complicated area than abortion). But even in situations where Halacha might discourage contraception , I can't imagine anyone saying it applies to Bnai Noach. Plan B is simply a form of contraception. I can't see Halacha treating it any differently than any other form of oral birth control.