Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 45149 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #320 on: June 02, 2019, 02:20:54 PM »
I've been ignoring, because unlike you I'm wary of getting into the fine details of such a sensitive and weighty issue on a public forum. The fact that it doesn't bother you is not my fault. That said, I'm happy to keep on stating that in general abortion is murder as per the psak of leading Poskim and that I'm overjoyed that some states are finally taking a serious stand against it.



 

Well okay then....

I guess its a good thing that there are those who care about the actual ramifications of things over taking a stand. This isn't the first time we have disagreed over that.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 02:44:43 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #321 on: June 03, 2019, 06:10:36 AM »
Fetus's don't exist during the Plan B timing. Plan B works by blocking the sperm from accessing the egg. Sperm can live for about 5 days before either dying or fertilizing. Plan B is not an abortion as it would only work pre-fertilization. If you are going to try to talk about abortion regulations, it is a good idea to understand basic biology first. So while Plan B is only effective for 5 days, once the egg is fertilized (which could happen much faster depending on the woman's ovulation cycle), it is useless.

I understand the biology of Plan B. Do you understand that there are pro-life groups who are against Plan B?  It is definitely part of the conversation. Perhaps I should have said "from sperm deposit to the end of Plan B timing."

You are so busy arguing that you don't even know what you are arguing about.

I don't understand what you mean. I think abortions should be safe and legal and we should regulate other ways to reduce the need for abortions. I think the conversation switches once a fetus can survive on its own outside the womb, although I still think that it should be left to the woman and her doctor regarding medical ethics rather than law. The timelines that I think are relevant are those I listed, although viability is not really defined well.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 06:33:39 AM by saw50st8 »

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #322 on: June 03, 2019, 07:03:50 AM »
I understand the biology of Plan B. Do you understand that there are pro-life groups who are against Plan B?  It is definitely part of the conversation. Perhaps I should have said "from sperm deposit to the end of Plan B timing."

I don't understand what you mean. I think abortions should be safe and legal and we should regulate other ways to reduce the need for abortions. I think the conversation switches once a fetus can survive on its own outside the womb, although I still think that it should be left to the woman and her doctor regarding medical ethics rather than law. The timelines that I think are relevant are those I listed, although viability is not really defined well.
If people are against Plan B, than this has nothing to do with life. Pro lifers love to trumpet that the fetus is a   biologically distinct entity, which is patently false during so called "Plan B timing".

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #323 on: June 03, 2019, 07:11:29 AM »
I understand the biology of Plan B. Do you understand that there are pro-life groups who are against Plan B?  It is definitely part of the conversation. Perhaps I should have said "from sperm deposit to the end of Plan B timing."
Being anti Plan B is a purely Christian idea.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #324 on: June 03, 2019, 08:05:46 AM »
Being anti Plan B is a purely Christian idea.

Huh? The idea that sex and procreation should not be disassociated is definitely a Jewish idea.

Unless you meant to say that considering Plan B as abortion is a Christian idea.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #325 on: June 03, 2019, 08:15:38 AM »
If people are against Plan B, than this has nothing to do with life. Pro lifers love to trumpet that the fetus is a   biologically distinct entity, which is patently false during so called "Plan B timing".
Being anti Plan B is a purely Christian idea.

Yes but so much of the anti-abortion lobby is purely Christian. Catholics have zero tolerance for abortion even for saving the life of the mother. No one is trying to regulate based on halacha, nor should we be advocating for that.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #326 on: June 03, 2019, 08:49:05 AM »

One last thing.  in the WaPo article they quote Dr Jennifer Gunter explaining a situation where abortion is safer than delivery.

"A good example is a woman at 26 weeks who needs to be delivered for her blood pressure — that is the cure, delivery. However, because of her high-blood pressure fetal development has been affected and her fetus is estimated to weigh 300 g, which means it can not live after delivery. She will be offered an abortion if there is a skilled provider. This is safer for her and her uterus than a delivery."

This is a staple of abortionists attempts to justify abortion.  Unfortunately doctors cannot know which babies will make it and which won't. This recent news article shows what a lie it is.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/allthemoms/2019/05/29/worlds-smallest-baby-goes-home-now-weighs-more-than-5-pounds/1276867001/

She was born at 23 weeks at 8.6 oz which is significantly less that 300g. 

Also in the article:
"It's pretty incredible that baby Seybie is thriving. A 2015 report published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) found that premature babies born at 23 weeks had a survival rate of 33%."

 survival rate of 33% ≠ can not live after delivery

It is also interesting to note that Seybie was delivered early because her mother was suffering from the very condition Dr. Gunter used in her example for when an abortion is necessary to save the mothers life.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #327 on: June 03, 2019, 08:55:02 AM »
Yes but so much of the anti-abortion lobby is purely Christian. Catholics have zero tolerance for abortion even for saving the life of the mother. No one is trying to regulate based on halacha, nor should we be advocating for that.

Is this true? It doesn't seem so clear cut.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #328 on: June 03, 2019, 08:55:32 AM »
Huh? The idea that sex and procreation should not be disassociated is definitely a Jewish idea.

Unless you meant to say that considering Plan B as abortion is a Christian idea.

+1

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #329 on: June 03, 2019, 09:10:30 AM »
Huh? The idea that sex and procreation should not be disassociated is definitely a Jewish idea.

Unless you meant to say that considering Plan B as abortion is a Christian idea.

What on earth does abortion have to do with associating sex and procreation? Obviously, Halacha has opinions on contraception (which is a far more complicated area than abortion). But even in situations where Halacha might discourage contraception , I can't imagine anyone saying it applies to Bnai Noach. Plan B is simply a form of contraception. I can't see Halacha treating it any differently than any other form of oral birth control.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #330 on: June 03, 2019, 09:18:54 AM »
What on earth does abortion have to do with associating sex and procreation? Obviously, Halacha has opinions on contraception (which is a far more complicated area than abortion). But even in situations where Halacha might discourage contraception , I can't imagine anyone saying it applies to Bnai Noach. Plan B is simply a form of contraception. I can't see Halacha treating it any differently than any other form of oral birth control.

You are in agreement with him.  Someone said
Being anti Plan B is a purely Christian idea.

which I think we all agree is not strictly true, as
I can't see Halacha treating it any differently than any other form of oral birth control.



Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #331 on: June 03, 2019, 09:37:18 AM »
Unless you meant to say that considering Plan B as abortion is a Christian idea.
This is what I meant. That the pro-life lobby that is also anti Plan B is coming from a Christian mindset.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #332 on: June 03, 2019, 09:41:01 AM »
Yes but so much of the anti-abortion lobby is purely Christian. Catholics have zero tolerance for abortion even for saving the life of the mother. No one is trying to regulate based on halacha, nor should we be advocating for that.
So how should we advocate for regulation? Halacha tells us what to consider a fetus, not anything or anyone else. To be clear, I am anti abortion regulation, but not because I believe that it's ok in most instances. The problem with coming up with arbitrary situations when abortion is ok and when it isn't ok is exactly that, it's arbitrary.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #333 on: June 03, 2019, 01:23:52 PM »
So how should we advocate for regulation? Halacha tells us what to consider a fetus, not anything or anyone else. To be clear, I am anti abortion regulation, but not because I believe that it's ok in most instances. The problem with coming up with arbitrary situations when abortion is ok and when it isn't ok is exactly that, it's arbitrary.

We should advocate for regulations that help reduce unwanted pregnancies and reduce the situations where people feel like they cannot afford them.  That naturally reduces abortions.

Many people who are pro-choice (myself included) don't necessarily support people aborting for no reason but think that should be left between a woman and her doctor to work out.

I don't think we should regulate things that get in the way of religion because we are a minority. It doesn't end well if you pick a religion to regulate. I will consult my own Rabbi should I have a question on abortion. I can only do that if they are legal.

Is this true? It doesn't seem so clear cut.

I think the catholic position is that you cannot actively abort a fetus to save a mother's life. I started googling and it seems fairly accurate although I did discover this group:

https://www.catholicsforchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/TruthaboutCatholicsandAbortion.pdf

I don't know where they fall within Catholicism so that very well may be the "reform" position so to speak. Like everything else, it seems to depend who you ask.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #334 on: June 03, 2019, 05:10:49 PM »
We should advocate for regulations that help reduce unwanted pregnancies and reduce the situations where people feel like they cannot afford them.  That naturally reduces abortions.

Many people who are pro-choice (myself included) don't necessarily support people aborting for no reason but think that should be left between a woman and her doctor to work out.

I don't think we should regulate things that get in the way of religion because we are a minority. It doesn't end well if you pick a religion to regulate. I will consult my own Rabbi should I have a question on abortion. I can only do that if they are legal.
I quite frankly find your watered-down Judaism nauseating. You call yourself pro-choice. That means something. Pro-choice means advocating for legalized abortion.

Then you pivot to not wanting to actively regulate abortion, which means you aren't really pro-choice. You don't want religion involved because we are a minority (an absurd idea) but of-course we really should advocate to minimize unwanted pregnancies. 

Sorry, but Judaism isn't based on wishy-washy, half-baked ideas. Frum Jews always abhorred pro-choice which means advocating for freedom to murder at the flip of a dime. Healthy frum Jews also don't have an inferiority complex so they don't view the fact that they are a minority as a reason not to advocate for their rights.
 
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #335 on: June 03, 2019, 06:00:36 PM »
I quite frankly find your watered-down Judaism nauseating. You call yourself pro-choice. That means something. Pro-choice means advocating for legalized abortion.

Then you pivot to not wanting to actively regulate abortion, which means you aren't really pro-choice. You don't want religion involved because we are a minority (an absurd idea) but of-course we really should advocate to minimize unwanted pregnancies. 

Sorry, but Judaism isn't based on wishy-washy, half-baked ideas. Frum Jews always abhorred pro-choice which means advocating for freedom to murder at the flip of a dime. Healthy frum Jews also don't have an inferiority complex so they don't view the fact that they are a minority as a reason not to advocate for their rights.
 
Quite frankly, you have lost the ability to both, see what someone here actually means with their post, and to respond with an actual thought out response which is coherently put into words.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #336 on: June 03, 2019, 06:29:15 PM »
Quite frankly, you have lost the ability to both, see what someone here actually means with their post,
I should be deciphering a hidden meaning? He/she wrote that he/she is pro choice and that we should not regulate things that get in the way of religion because we are a minority. Awful ideas.

and to respond with an actual thought out response which is coherently put into words.
Noting incoherent with what I wrote.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth