Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 22920 times)

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2019, 02:46:14 PM »
No, but a baby is not considered an actual baby until it takes its first breath. But I think we can all agree that killing a healthy baby in utero a moment before it is born would be abhorrent. Viability changes with every generation.

Women who have late term abortions do so for medical reasons. They are usually very much wanted and longed for babies who end up being incompatible with life in some way.

I think we need to look upstream at what risk factors are for causing unwanted pregnancies and stop that. It's like changing your diet BEFORE you have a heart attack rather than requiring a bypass.

I grew up in the frum community and over my lifetime there has been a huge shift to the right. Abortion has definitely been a part of that. People used to view being pro-choice as sort of a necessary evil to make sure they were available. Now I find scores of people who are completely against it (likely until their good bais yaakov girl comes home pregnant and gets a heter to abort instead of ruining the rest of her life).
People are in denial if they think that elective abortion for serious but not life threatening situations is completely absent from the community with the support of rabbonim. No, I don't have stats to back that up, but I've heard stories about people in this parsha knowing who to ask, similar to birth control.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2019, 02:59:01 PM »
Women who have late term abortions do so for medical reasons. They are usually very much wanted and longed for babies who end up being incompatible with life in some way.
This is largely false as can be seen here from Florida where they track all abortions http://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Central_Services/Training_Support/Reports.shtml under by gestation reason
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Yonah

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2019, 03:18:36 PM »
Every time you scare me with your logic, I think it canít get worse, but it does. What does any of this have to do with rodeph? Rodeph is a case where we know that the motherís life is in danger. A pregnancy that does not endanger the motherís life has an inherent risk, but not similar to rodeph at all.

Think of it like driving a vehicle. Is there an inherent risk every time you take the wheel? Yes. Does that mean that every time you take the wheel someone is trying to crash into you? No.

You're one to talk about logic! By your logic, we should bentch gomel everytime we drive 3 blocks!! Correct me if I am wrong, but we bentch gomel when:
- We fly overseas (most people do, not everyone)
- We have a major surgery or recover from a life-threatening illness
- A woman gives birth

The common theme here is that all 3 are life threatening.




OK so then we should be on board in the vast majority of cases - not like you posit above that most abortions are due to medical complexities.
You misquoted me - I suggested that women who have abortions beyond the second trimester do so because of medical reasons.


I would imagine that most of the over 50 million babies that have been slain in the U.S. since 1973 do not have any justification whatsoever. The fact that you seem to have been viewing the cruelty of abortion through the lens of an exception case in your opinion, does not have any bearing on the rule because exceptions donít prove rules.

Imagine what will happen when despicable people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg ymĒsh Ė the Supreme Courtís most ardent protector of abortion rights - finally kicks the bucket. I imagine millions of unborn children who were denied the right to breathe because of people like Ginsburg clawing into her cursed soul and and ripping it apart for eternity, again and again and again...

Dude, you have issues.

Offline Yonah

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2019, 03:23:08 PM »
This is largely false as can be seen here from Florida where they track all abortions http://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Central_Services/Training_Support/Reports.shtml under by gestation reason

The three reports listed here, only state that there have been 4 recorded 3rd trimester abortions in the last 2+ years - all because of medical reasons?

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2019, 03:27:48 PM »
Women who have late term abortions do so for medical reasons.
avromie7 says that actual stats prove you wrong.

I grew up in the frum community and over my lifetime there has been a huge shift to the right. Abortion has definitely been a part of that. People used to view being pro-choice as sort of a necessary evil to make sure they were available. Now I find scores of people who are completely against it (likely until their good bais yaakov girl comes home pregnant and gets a heter to abort instead of ruining the rest of her life).

I don't know where you grew up, but its more likely for someone to have a right wing stance because he shifted to the right not the other way around.

BTW, your joke about how scores of hard core anti-abortionists are becoming liberal because their bais yaakov girls are coming home pregnant is antisemitic and in poor taste. Also, by the way, pregnancies are a million times more common in public schools than in frum schools.

Waiting for you to apologize 
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2019, 03:29:47 PM »
The three reports listed here, only state that there have been 4 recorded 3rd trimester abortions in the last 2+ years - all because of medical reasons?
I thought we were talking about 2nd trimester too
If we're only talking about 3rd trimester, there is no medical reason in the world that requires a 3rd trimester abortion. Delivery yes, abortion no.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2019, 03:34:35 PM »
This is largely false as can be seen here from Florida where they track all abortions http://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Central_Services/Training_Support/Reports.shtml under by gestation reason
The three reports listed here, only state that there have been 4 recorded 3rd trimester abortions in the last 2+ years - all because of medical reasons?
I thought we were talking about 2nd trimester too
Late stage is not a very well defined term. The reality is that elective abortions probably drop off a cliff at the point where a medical abortion is no longer available, for the simple reason that you're electing surgery, which is a much more serious thing than taking medication.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2019, 03:38:30 PM »
I thought we were talking about 2nd trimester too
If we're only talking about 3rd trimester, there is no medical reason in the world that requires a 3rd trimester abortion. Delivery yes, abortion no.
Your own source contradicts that assertion. Both 2018 and 2017 show one 3rd trimester abortion "due to a Life Endangering Physical Condition" (ie danger to the mother).

Offline avromie7

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2019, 03:49:56 PM »
Your own source contradicts that assertion. Both 2018 and 2017 show one 3rd trimester abortion "due to a Life Endangering Physical Condition" (ie danger to the mother).
Just because it was done does not mean it was needed. When the mothers life is in danger in the 3rd trimester there are 2 options abortion and delivery, both would save the mothers life, but only one gives the baby a chance to live.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2019, 03:50:05 PM »
You're one to talk about logic! By your logic, we should bentch gomel everytime we drive 3 blocks!! Correct me if I am wrong, but we bentch gomel when:
- We fly overseas (most people do, not everyone)
- We have a major surgery or recover from a life-threatening illness
- A woman gives birth
The common theme here is that all 3 are life threatening.
No sir. Your logic is impaired not mine. There are two very different types of danger. One is specific, such as your neighbor chasing you with a knife or a woman told by her doctor that if she does not end her pregnancy she will die.
Now get ready for another type of danger. It is a general one. It is the type of danger you are in when you get behind the wheel or when you fly. It is a very real danger because accidents happen, but it is not a specific one so long as nothing actually goes wrong. Got it?

You misquoted me - I suggested that women who have abortions beyond the second trimester do so because of medical reasons.
OK. Say they are killing the baby in month 6 because the child will be down syndrome. Therefore? Are you saying that a down syndrome child has less rights to breathe than a regular child? That's disgusting. And what about the millions of murdered babies in their first trimester because the disgusting egocentric lowlife didn't want to have to suffer through carrying a baby?
Dude, you have issues.
Based on your advocating for murdering babies, I would argue very strongly to the contrary that your issues are more severe than you realize.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2019, 04:02:07 PM »
Just because it was done does not mean it was needed. When the mothers life is in danger in the 3rd trimester there are 2 options abortion and delivery, both would save the mothers life, but only one gives the baby a chance to live.
I feel confident saying you can't credibly make this assertion.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2019, 04:11:50 PM »
I feel confident saying you can't credibly make this assertion.

It's very credible.  It's true.
In developed countries,  as a rule babies delivered in the third trimester live.  If there is time for a D&C, there is time for a delivery. If there is not, a c-section to deliver is no more traumatic to the mother that a c-section to abort.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2019, 04:13:41 PM »
avromie7 says that actual stats prove you wrong.

I don't know where you grew up, but its more likely for someone to have a right wing stance because he shifted to the right not the other way around.

BTW, your joke about how scores of hard core anti-abortionists are becoming liberal because their bais yaakov girls are coming home pregnant is antisemitic and in poor taste. Also, by the way, pregnancies are a million times more common in public schools than in frum schools.

Waiting for you to apologize 


Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of great statistics about late term abortions. What we do know is that is is a tiny fraction (under 2%). I should have written that the people I know with late term abortions were all for fetal anomalies.

I grew up in Monsey. Is that right wing enough for you? ;-) Are you denying that as a whole, communities have shifted to the right? Different discussion for a different time.

As to my "joke" - it really isn't. It is absolutely the equivalent of the Republican Senator who is anti abortion until his mistress gets pregnant.  You don't have to believe me, but there are some Bais Yaakov girls who have gotten heterim to abort because a pregnancy would ruin their lives. Who would marry a girl who had a baby at 16 our of wedlock in the Yeshivish community? 

I don't know exactly what you want me to apologize for.  If you are really serious about reducing the number of abortions (which have been declining every year of late), then I suggest you research the root cause of unwanted pregnancies and then work to help that.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2019, 04:17:51 PM »
It's very credible.  It's true.
In developed countries,  as a rule babies delivered in the third trimester live.  If there is time for a D&C, there is time for a delivery. If there is not, a c-section to deliver is no more traumatic to the mother that a c-section to abort.
That doesn't address the point at all. The baby can be non-viable, and cause a danger to the mother. The question then becomes which is safer, removing the baby via abortion or via delivery.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2019, 04:32:07 PM »
It's very credible.  It's true.
In developed countries,  as a rule babies delivered in the third trimester live.  If there is time for a D&C, there is time for a delivery. If there is not, a c-section to deliver is no more traumatic to the mother that a c-section to abort.
I don't think this is medically accurate.


Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2019, 04:34:43 PM »
Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of great statistics about late term abortions. What we do know is that is is a tiny fraction (under 2%). I should have written that the people I know with late term abortions were all for fetal anomalies.
So the majority of abortions are at an earlier stage. That doesn't make it not murder.
 
I grew up in Monsey. Is that right wing enough for you? ;-) Are you denying that as a whole, communities have shifted to the right? Different discussion for a different time.
I would argue that some Jewish communities have drifted to the left and others to the right. It's nice that your community seems to have moved closer to G-d, but my point was that a right wing viewpoint is probably the result of said shift, not as you argue that the shift is due to people suddenly spouting right wing opinions and then because of those opinions shifting to the right....

As to my "joke" - it really isn't. It is absolutely the equivalent of the Republican Senator who is anti abortion until his mistress gets pregnant.  You don't have to believe me, but there are some Bais Yaakov girls who have gotten heterim to abort because a pregnancy would ruin their lives. Who would marry a girl who had a baby at 16 our of wedlock in the Yeshivish community? 
Oh so when you wrote that scores of frum girls are coming home from school pregnant changing their parents opinion on abortion you meant it for real? It's getting worse than I thought.
But now you downgrade it to some so you were exaggerating to make your point. Well, it was still in poor taste so you should say I'm sorry.

If you are really serious about reducing the number of abortions (which have been declining every year of late), then I suggest you research the root cause of unwanted pregnancies and then work to help that.
I guess I'm not serious enough since all i'm doing is writing about it instead of working on it. BTW the best way by far to reduce it is by enacting legislation, so then let this be my grassroots hishtadlus

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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2019, 04:39:29 PM »
So the majority of abortions are at an earlier stage. That doesn't make it not murder.
 I would argue that some Jewish communities have drifted to the left and others to the right. It's nice that your community seems to have moved closer to G-d, but my point was that a right wing viewpoint is probably the result of said shift, not as you argue that the shift is due to people suddenly spouting right wing opinions and then because of those opinions shifting to the right....
Oh so when you wrote that scores of frum girls are coming home from school pregnant changing their parents opinion on abortion you meant it for real? It's getting worse than I thought.
But now you downgrade it to some so you were exaggerating to make your point. Well, it was still in poor taste so you should say I'm sorry.
I guess I'm not serious enough since all i'm doing is writing about it instead of working on it. BTW the best way by far to reduce it is by enacting legislation, so then let this be my grassroots hishtadlus
The best way to reduce abortions is to reduce unwanted pregnancies by making birth control pills low cost and over the counter.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2019, 04:42:42 PM »
That doesn't address the point at all. The baby can be non-viable, and cause a danger to the mother. The question then becomes which is safer, removing the baby via abortion or via delivery.

Do you know what 'via abortion' actually means?

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #98 on: May 21, 2019, 04:42:55 PM »
The best way to reduce abortions is to reduce unwanted pregnancies by making birth control pills low cost and over the counter.
umm, those pills are widely available yet millions of abortions are still happening so that probably isn't the very best way.
Legislation is far and away a better option
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2019, 04:45:19 PM »
The best way to reduce abortions is to reduce unwanted pregnancies by making birth control pills low cost and over the counter.

100%.  Making abortion on demand illegal will also reduce abortions.  It would probably also hasten the arrival of low cost OTC birth control.