Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 9780 times)

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2019, 04:02:07 PM »
Just because it was done does not mean it was needed. When the mothers life is in danger in the 3rd trimester there are 2 options abortion and delivery, both would save the mothers life, but only one gives the baby a chance to live.
I feel confident saying you can't credibly make this assertion.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2019, 04:11:50 PM »
I feel confident saying you can't credibly make this assertion.

It's very credible.  It's true.
In developed countries,  as a rule babies delivered in the third trimester live.  If there is time for a D&C, there is time for a delivery. If there is not, a c-section to deliver is no more traumatic to the mother that a c-section to abort.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2019, 04:13:41 PM »
avromie7 says that actual stats prove you wrong.

I don't know where you grew up, but its more likely for someone to have a right wing stance because he shifted to the right not the other way around.

BTW, your joke about how scores of hard core anti-abortionists are becoming liberal because their bais yaakov girls are coming home pregnant is antisemitic and in poor taste. Also, by the way, pregnancies are a million times more common in public schools than in frum schools.

Waiting for you to apologize 


Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of great statistics about late term abortions. What we do know is that is is a tiny fraction (under 2%). I should have written that the people I know with late term abortions were all for fetal anomalies.

I grew up in Monsey. Is that right wing enough for you? ;-) Are you denying that as a whole, communities have shifted to the right? Different discussion for a different time.

As to my "joke" - it really isn't. It is absolutely the equivalent of the Republican Senator who is anti abortion until his mistress gets pregnant.  You don't have to believe me, but there are some Bais Yaakov girls who have gotten heterim to abort because a pregnancy would ruin their lives. Who would marry a girl who had a baby at 16 our of wedlock in the Yeshivish community? 

I don't know exactly what you want me to apologize for.  If you are really serious about reducing the number of abortions (which have been declining every year of late), then I suggest you research the root cause of unwanted pregnancies and then work to help that.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2019, 04:17:51 PM »
It's very credible.  It's true.
In developed countries,  as a rule babies delivered in the third trimester live.  If there is time for a D&C, there is time for a delivery. If there is not, a c-section to deliver is no more traumatic to the mother that a c-section to abort.
That doesn't address the point at all. The baby can be non-viable, and cause a danger to the mother. The question then becomes which is safer, removing the baby via abortion or via delivery.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2019, 04:32:07 PM »
It's very credible.  It's true.
In developed countries,  as a rule babies delivered in the third trimester live.  If there is time for a D&C, there is time for a delivery. If there is not, a c-section to deliver is no more traumatic to the mother that a c-section to abort.
I don't think this is medically accurate.


Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2019, 04:34:43 PM »
Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of great statistics about late term abortions. What we do know is that is is a tiny fraction (under 2%). I should have written that the people I know with late term abortions were all for fetal anomalies.
So the majority of abortions are at an earlier stage. That doesn't make it not murder.
 
I grew up in Monsey. Is that right wing enough for you? ;-) Are you denying that as a whole, communities have shifted to the right? Different discussion for a different time.
I would argue that some Jewish communities have drifted to the left and others to the right. It's nice that your community seems to have moved closer to G-d, but my point was that a right wing viewpoint is probably the result of said shift, not as you argue that the shift is due to people suddenly spouting right wing opinions and then because of those opinions shifting to the right....

As to my "joke" - it really isn't. It is absolutely the equivalent of the Republican Senator who is anti abortion until his mistress gets pregnant.  You don't have to believe me, but there are some Bais Yaakov girls who have gotten heterim to abort because a pregnancy would ruin their lives. Who would marry a girl who had a baby at 16 our of wedlock in the Yeshivish community? 
Oh so when you wrote that scores of frum girls are coming home from school pregnant changing their parents opinion on abortion you meant it for real? It's getting worse than I thought.
But now you downgrade it to some so you were exaggerating to make your point. Well, it was still in poor taste so you should say I'm sorry.

If you are really serious about reducing the number of abortions (which have been declining every year of late), then I suggest you research the root cause of unwanted pregnancies and then work to help that.
I guess I'm not serious enough since all i'm doing is writing about it instead of working on it. BTW the best way by far to reduce it is by enacting legislation, so then let this be my grassroots hishtadlus

A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2019, 04:39:29 PM »
So the majority of abortions are at an earlier stage. That doesn't make it not murder.
 I would argue that some Jewish communities have drifted to the left and others to the right. It's nice that your community seems to have moved closer to G-d, but my point was that a right wing viewpoint is probably the result of said shift, not as you argue that the shift is due to people suddenly spouting right wing opinions and then because of those opinions shifting to the right....
Oh so when you wrote that scores of frum girls are coming home from school pregnant changing their parents opinion on abortion you meant it for real? It's getting worse than I thought.
But now you downgrade it to some so you were exaggerating to make your point. Well, it was still in poor taste so you should say I'm sorry.
I guess I'm not serious enough since all i'm doing is writing about it instead of working on it. BTW the best way by far to reduce it is by enacting legislation, so then let this be my grassroots hishtadlus
The best way to reduce abortions is to reduce unwanted pregnancies by making birth control pills low cost and over the counter.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2019, 04:42:42 PM »
That doesn't address the point at all. The baby can be non-viable, and cause a danger to the mother. The question then becomes which is safer, removing the baby via abortion or via delivery.

Do you know what 'via abortion' actually means?

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #98 on: May 21, 2019, 04:42:55 PM »
The best way to reduce abortions is to reduce unwanted pregnancies by making birth control pills low cost and over the counter.
umm, those pills are widely available yet millions of abortions are still happening so that probably isn't the very best way.
Legislation is far and away a better option
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2019, 04:45:19 PM »
The best way to reduce abortions is to reduce unwanted pregnancies by making birth control pills low cost and over the counter.

100%.  Making abortion on demand illegal will also reduce abortions.  It would probably also hasten the arrival of low cost OTC birth control.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2019, 04:45:43 PM »
I don't think this is medically accurate.

Which part?

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2019, 04:48:51 PM »
umm, those pills are widely available yet millions of abortions are still happening so that probably isn't the very best way.
Legislation is far and away a better option
You need to make an appointment with a dr to get them, and then fill a prescription, which means you need medical insurance with low out of pocket fees for the visit in the first place, and then insurance for the pills themselves.

There are also right wingers who are trying to make it no longer required for health plans to offer birth control as an option.

States that push abstinence only education also aren't helping as they don't make young women aware of the fact that the pill is almost always free after going to 1 Dr. visit.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2019, 04:50:16 PM »
Which part?
I think there are situations where a c section
is more risky to the mother than aborting the fetus.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2019, 04:51:56 PM »
You could also make plan B free.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2019, 04:54:49 PM »
I think there are situations where a c section
is more risky to the mother than aborting the fetus.

What does 'aborting the fetus' mean when we're talking about a 3rd trimester baby?

ETA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy#Methods

None of these is less risky than delivery of a live baby.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 05:02:21 PM by Boruch999 »