Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 9630 times)

Offline Definitions

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2019, 02:09:21 PM »
This makes absolutely no sense at all.
In which scenario?
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2019, 03:51:42 PM »

So by this logic, if a doctor tells a pregnant woman that she her pregnancy needs to be terminate because there is a chance that she might die, you'd would ignore her horrific situation and not destroy innocent life, even if it means she might die?


Let's get this out of the way. When the mother's life is at risk, it isn't comparable. Halacha says that the child is viewed as a rodef.

You should be commended for your compassionate feelings toward the woman that underwent the harrowing experience. The wickedness of the pervert, her doctor visits, maternity clothes, the trauma. There's no doubt that the perp will be greatly punished in Gehennom and probably this world as well. But the Halacha revolves around the baby, not the mother. You mentioned above that you are a frum man with children. I doubt you would be a good judge because you are very partial. You need to take a step back.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2019, 03:55:42 PM »
In which scenario?

Pretty much every scenario.

Where did you get the idea that laws are about feelings and not logic? It's very much the polar opposite. Laws are typically logical constructs.
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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2019, 04:02:46 PM »
Pretty much every scenario.

Where did you get the idea that laws are about feelings and not logic? It's very much the polar opposite. Laws are typically logical constructs.
Let's take stealing for example. Stealing won't ruin the world if the person doesn't care that someone stole. So why should  the stealer have to not steal more than the other person has to work on accepting his situation at all times?

(Basically it's the concept of ownership that I'm asking on)

The answer is because you FEEL that there's a concept of ownership that entitles you to something that no one else has a right to.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2019, 04:33:23 PM »

Yes - hashem wants her to be raped. I'm sure she deserves it.

That is a despicable misstatment of my views and I would have expected better from you.

What if boils down to is that you believe
We're not talking about killing a baby. We're talking about killing a fetus that isn't viable outside the womb,

And therefore it is ok to kill him or her if the inconvenience or suffering of the mother is enough, and Torah says that it is murder (although on a somewhat lesser level) and therefore the only reason it can be allowed is to save a life.

The difference between your view and that of Planned Parenthood's is just a question of degree.

And to your suggestion that I speak to a rape survivor, I recommend that you speak to an abortion survivor or someone who was concieved by rape.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2019, 04:37:08 PM »
Let's take stealing for example. Stealing won't ruin the world if the person doesn't care that someone stole. So why should  the stealer have to not steal more than the other person has to work on accepting his situation at all times?

(Basically it's the concept of ownership that I'm asking on)

The answer is because you FEEL that there's a concept of ownership that entitles you to something that no one else has a right to.
-1 feeling would be I want it so I take it, logic dictates that I own something and if you take it you are a thief.
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Offline ADG

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2019, 04:47:50 PM »
I hear the arguments and I cannot make up my mind because each side is so extreme.

On a side note I am dumbfounded how this has become such a important topic in american politics and culture. Americans are usually surrounded by lowest cultural objectives and here we are discussing an extremely difficult and nuanced debate on morality/ethics/governance.

My personal position is (still formulating but) I do believe in the sanctity of life but its probably not the government's place to protect that because it is a religious matter.  If someone made a horrible mistake, I think they should be able to get abortion early on- not late in the game. (pretty much on the side of roe I guess)


Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2019, 04:51:48 PM »
Let's take stealing for example. Stealing won't ruin the world if the person doesn't care that someone stole. So why should  the stealer have to not steal more than the other person has to work on accepting his situation at all times?

(Basically it's the concept of ownership that I'm asking on)

The answer is because you FEEL that there's a concept of ownership that entitles you to something that no one else has a right to.

Interesting point.
I think that what you are discussing isn't law. It's a philosophical discussion on the nature of things. In this case, the concept of ownership.
Law dictates that you must give back what you stole, which is logical (once you accept the concept of ownership).

However, even regarding the concept of ownership itself, it may not be so clear cut. Who says that "ownership" is predicated on a feeling of entitlement? Perhaps the feeling of entitlement is a result of the concept of ownership...
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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2019, 04:52:39 PM »
But the Halacha revolves around the baby, not the mother.
I take very strong exception to this line. How can you not take the mother into account?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2019, 05:06:22 PM »
I hear the arguments and I cannot make up my mind because each side is so extreme.

My personal position is (still formulating but) I do believe in the sanctity of life but its probably not the government's place to protect that because it is a religious matter.
Religious matter? Would you argue that the government should look away in a case where a man shoots his neighbor because it is a religious matter? After all, the sin of murder is based on the concept that man is created in G-d's image. Not even a liberal would argue that. In fact, one of the 7 Laws of Noah is to establish court systems, so they better not look away.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2019, 05:16:21 PM »
I take very strong exception to this line. How can you not take the mother into account?

See upthread. If you still have trouble differentiating I can't help you.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2019, 05:27:50 PM »
I take very strong exception to this line. How can you not take the mother into account?

I think his point was that because we are dealing with a competition between the mother's pain vs. the baby's life, the life is our primary focus

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2019, 05:38:29 PM »
I think you need to read up on rape victims and how carrying a fetus to term and delivering it can increase the trauma.

You say you are pro life because of the Torah, but the Torah is not "pro life" in the American sense of the word.

I think society and government should be studying why women end up in positions wanting abortions and work upstream to reduce unwanted pregnancies. You can't combine abstinence only education with no birth control and expect teenagers to not end up pregnant...

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2019, 05:51:14 PM »
I think you need to read up on rape victims and how carrying a fetus to term and delivering it can increase the trauma.

If you think I am disputing that rape causes trama (and that that trama is increased when a pregnancy results) you haven't read a word I wrote.

The point I made repeatedly is that trama, or pain is not a reason to take a life. Obviously if that trama is a risk to the mother's life (as defined by Torah and assessed by a competent posek) then we return to the discussion of rodef.


You say you are pro life because of the Torah, but the Torah is not "pro life" in the American sense of the word.


Yes it is (with exceptions and nuance).

You can't combine abstinence only education with no birth control and expect teenagers to not end up pregnant...

Of course you can. What is the teen pregnancy rate in Williamsburg, Boro Park or Lakewood?

What you can do is bombard kids with sex in culture 24/7 and then expect a sex-ed class with the gym teacher to counter what they see every day on TV.

The bigger problem with this argument is that it pretends that teen/pre-marital sex is fine as long as it doesn't end in pregnancy. That idea certainly doesn't come from Torah...

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2019, 05:52:14 PM »
See upthread. If you still have trouble differentiating I can't help you.
You mean this?
While we recognize that she underwent a horrific, life-altering experience, we need to ignore that right now so that we don't destroy in innocent life.
Any moreh hora'a who can ignore that probably shouldn't be paskening.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.