Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 22103 times)

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #140 on: May 23, 2019, 11:08:53 AM »
Would you support child support payments from conception? Fathers pay for 50% of prenatal visits, delivery etc?
The government already helps out poor women in this situation.  Medicaid, WIC, food stamps...

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #141 on: May 23, 2019, 11:15:24 AM »
The government already helps out poor women in this situation.  Medicaid, WIC, food stamps...
How much does Alabama do? They voted against medicaid expansion, want to get rid of the ACA etc.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #142 on: May 23, 2019, 12:06:27 PM »
Why should the woman bear the full cost for this life? Child support payments help the mother, not the baby.
If there is a good argument why the man should bear part of the cost, then so be it. So, after outlawing murder the next step should be to consider if husbands paying child support should start earlier.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #143 on: May 23, 2019, 12:10:08 PM »
If there is a good argument why the man should bear part of the cost, then so be it. So, after outlawing murder the next step should be to consider if husbands paying child support should start earlier.
It's not a next step as abortion doesn't take place in a vaccum.

It would be like outlawing smoking because cigarettes kill, without figuring out how to treat people who are addicted to nicotine. Or like the GND banning air travel without funding a replacement.

So while a clear cut moral argument exists to ban abortion in most cases, there are people who's lives will be very much affected by this and who need to be considered at the forefront of this.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #144 on: May 23, 2019, 12:18:32 PM »
It's not a next step as abortion doesn't take place in a vaccum.

It would be like outlawing smoking because cigarettes kill, without figuring out how to treat people who are addicted to nicotine. Or like the GND banning air travel without funding a replacement.

So while a clear cut moral argument exists to ban abortion in most cases, there are people who's lives will be very much affected by this and who need to be considered at the forefront of this.
Wrong. the very first immediate action necessary is to stop the killings. That is far and away our most urgent concern.

After that we can figure out how to help women who need financial help form their spouses.

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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #145 on: May 23, 2019, 01:09:43 PM »
Wrong. the very first immediate action necessary is to stop the killings. That is far and away our most urgent concern.

After that we can figure out how to help women who need financial help form their spouses.
+1

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #146 on: May 23, 2019, 01:20:35 PM »
the best method is legislation.
The best method to stop alcohol-related deaths (of which there are around 88k per year according to the CDC) is also legislation. Prohibition didn't work out that well here did it?
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #147 on: May 23, 2019, 01:23:24 PM »
After that we can figure out how to help women who need financial help form their spouses.
That's all very nice except that, as @Boruch999 so eloquently put it, we don't live in a vacuum. Laws have consequences and you have to be prepared for them when you enact one. We all see what happened with Obamacare.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #148 on: May 23, 2019, 01:35:44 PM »
The best method to stop alcohol-related deaths (of which there are around 88k per year according to the CDC) is also legislation. Prohibition didn't work out that well here did it?
+1
It's like nobody here understands how society works. Our war on drugs is also going swimmingly.

Yes, abortion is bad when the reason is bad. You can try fix it by making it illegal, which will probably stop some abortions, but will create an unsafe black market in the process. I'm not sure it is helpful for someone to get an abortion with a hanger in someone's basement.

You could also try to influence social policy to provide better funding for women with unwanted pregnancies, cheaper contraception coverage, better post-birth maternity coverage and care, better foster systems etc. That will stop some abortions, but since there are no disincentives for abortion, will only go so far.

You can also try to do both - make abortions illegal in most cases, leave reasonable exceptions in place when you know a woman is going to do it underground anyway, but also try to solve for the fundemental social issues that cause women to seek abortions in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 01:45:21 PM by shaulyaakov »

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #149 on: May 23, 2019, 01:44:25 PM »
+1
It's like nobody here understands how society works. Out war on drugs is also going swimmingly.

Yes, abortion is bad when the reason is bad. You can try fix it by making it illegal, which will probably stop some abortions, but will create an unsafe black market in the process. I'm not sure it is helpful for someone to get an abortion with a hanger in someone's basement.

You could also try to influence social policy to provide better funding for women with unwanted pregnancies, cheaper contraception coverage, better post-birth maternity coverage and care, better foster systems etc. That will stop some abortions, but since there are no disincentives for abortion, will only go so far.

You can also try to do both - make abortions illegal in most cases, leave reasonable exceptions in place when you know a woman is going to do it underground anyway, but also try to solve for the fundemental social issues that cause women to seek abortions in the first place.
I think part of the problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of the point of government. Government isn't just there to stop people from doing things, it's there to improve and help our society in any way that it can without overstepping it's boundaries. We can argue what those boundaries are but making BC more easily available and improving sex-ed classes isn't going into anywhere that the government isn't already involved in anyway.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #150 on: May 23, 2019, 01:47:41 PM »
To couch this in different terms - legal abortions don't kill fetuses, people kill fetuses. So long as people feel that an abortion is their only choice, they will find a way to get around whatever laws.

Offline yos9694

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #151 on: May 23, 2019, 03:14:36 PM »
It's not a next step as abortion doesn't take place in a vaccum.

It literally does.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #152 on: May 23, 2019, 03:26:16 PM »
The best method to stop alcohol-related deaths (of which there are around 88k per year according to the CDC) is also legislation. Prohibition didn't work out that well here did it?
There is no comparison. And the fact that prohibition did not work then does not mean that any other legislation on any other issue won't work either.

Also keep in mind that there is a fundamental difference between alcohol and abortion. Alcohol on its face isn't bad. It only becomes a problem when abused. An abortion means slaying a baby which is horrifically wrong (with rare exception such as when the mother's life is in danger).
That's all very nice except that, as @Boruch999 so eloquently put it, we don't live in a vacuum. Laws have consequences and you have to be prepared for them when you enact one. We all see what happened with Obamacare.
Right but in very urgent cases like when the Jews were being annihilated in World War II only an anti-semite would suggest not liberating the inmates before having somewhere to place them.

Obviously if there was a solution right away, great. But if not, you first stop the killings, then work on what to do next. It is the same thing with abortion, assuming you agree that baby killing is problematic.
 
I think part of the problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of the point of government. Government isn't just there to stop people from doing things, it's there to improve and help our society in any way that it can without overstepping it's boundaries. We can argue what those boundaries are but making BC more easily available and improving sex-ed classes isn't going into anywhere that the government isn't already involved in anyway.
I would argue strenuously that government is there to both improve and help society as well as stop people from doing things. Examples that come to mind would be homicide, theft, rape, and…..crazy people killing their babies.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 03:43:27 PM by Shkop »
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #153 on: May 23, 2019, 03:41:51 PM »
To couch this in different terms - legal abortions don't kill fetuses, people kill fetuses. So long as people feel that an abortion is their only choice, they will find a way to get around whatever laws.

1) If baby killings were outlawed there would be far less abortions regardless of how you view it. As far as the "black market for abortions" would go, it's not like sneaking to the back of the store and buying some whiskey during prohibition.  Where exactly would the woman go? To her neighbor’s basement? To the butcher? No, many people would probably be very afraid to try it illegally.

2) Even regarding those people who would illegally kill their babies – it’s like any other law. People steal. Should we therefore not outlaw stealing?

3) As mentioned above, after outlawing abortion, the next important steps would be to figure out ways that would make people less interested in such things, as well as finding places for those children to live, far away from the subhuman that would have preferred their baby dead.   
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #154 on: May 23, 2019, 03:45:03 PM »
1) If baby killings were outlawed there would be far less abortions regardless of how you view it. As far as the "black market for abortions" would go, it's not like sneaking to the back of the store and buying some whiskey during prohibition.  Where exactly would the woman go? To her neighbor’s basement? To the butcher? No, many people would probably be very afraid to try it illegally.

2) Even regarding those people who would illegally kill their babies – it’s like any other law. People steal. Should we therefore not outlaw stealing?

3) As mentioned above, after outlawing abortion, the next important steps would be to figure out ways that would make people less interested in such things, as well as finding places for those children to live, far away from the subhuman that would have preferred their baby dead.

You undercut your argument with this.  Remove it and I'll delete this.  Also, halevai she should have a change of heart and choose to keep and love her baby.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #155 on: May 23, 2019, 03:55:28 PM »
You undercut your argument with this.  Remove it and I'll delete this.  Also, halevai she should have a change of heart and choose to keep and love her baby.
How so? It was argued above that there are women incapable of caring for their babies for various reasons, which is a twisted attempt to make abortion less abominable. My point is that after the government steps in and says no to murder, it should find a place for the kid.

Now that the baby is allowed to breathe, if the mama was hoping to kill it, she is a very bad choice for raising that kid. First off she wanted to kill. Second, that child won't get much love because she was forced to keep it. So, the logical thing would be to give the baby to a compassionate person who would adopt and care for the child.

That said, if the mother clearly was not with the program during her pregnancy and now very much loves the child and wants to raise it with love, that would be a different situation. 
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #156 on: May 23, 2019, 04:12:54 PM »
How so? It was argued above that there are women incapable of caring for their babies for various reasons, which is a twisted attempt to make abortion less abominable. My point is that after the government steps in and says no to murder, it should find a place for the kid.

Now that the baby is allowed to breathe, if the mama was hoping to kill it, she is a very bad choice for raising that kid. First off she wanted to kill. Second, that child won't get much love because she was forced to keep it. So, the logical thing would be to give the baby to a compassionate person who would adopt and care for the child.

That said, if the mother clearly was not with the program during her pregnancy and now very much loves the child and wants to raise it with love, that would be a different situation.
You're off the rails. Happy to continue reasoned debate with other people here, but somehow you went from abortion is murder to saying that women who would get an abortion and choose not to because it is illegal are "subhuman". So it's not only people who get abortions who are bad according to you, but even people who think about abortion.

I pray that nobody in your life ever has a traumatic pregnancy, and then even thinks about abortion.


Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #157 on: May 23, 2019, 04:17:19 PM »
How so? It was argued above that there are women incapable of caring for their babies for various reasons, which is a twisted attempt to make abortion less abominable. My point is that after the government steps in and says no to murder, it should find a place for the kid.

Now that the baby is allowed to breathe, if the mama was hoping to kill it, she is a very bad choice for raising that kid. First off she wanted to kill. Second, that child won't get much love because she was forced to keep it. So, the logical thing would be to give the baby to a compassionate person who would adopt and care for the child.

That said, if the mother clearly was not with the program during her pregnancy and now very much loves the child and wants to raise it with love, that would be a different situation.
You're living in a bubble. Do you honestly think that the hundreds of thousands of women who have had abortions in this country are heartless people who just want to kill babies? Do you have any idea what it means for most of these people to go through the trauma of having an abortion? When democrats say that the republicans arguing for making abortion illegal are just women haters, it's people like you who they are reffering to.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #158 on: May 23, 2019, 04:36:26 PM »
You're off the rails. Happy to continue reasoned debate with other people here, but somehow you went from abortion is murder to saying that women who would get an abortion and choose not to because it is illegal are "subhuman". So it's not only people who get abortions who are bad according to you, but even people who think about abortion.

I pray that nobody in your life ever has a traumatic pregnancy, and then even thinks about abortion.

According to the Guttmacher Institute, as per Wikipedia, the vast majority of women who have an abortion do it for entirely unjustifiable reason.
Let's take the most common reason given (see below): Having a baby would dramatically change my life

That's similar to stabbing your neighbor.

Even contimplating stabbing your neighbor is not a very human thing to do. Actually it's sub-human because humans are expected to be above seriously contemplating murder, especially if it is their very own child in their very own belly.

Notice how the vast majority of abortions (below) are non-health related.

Reason for choosing to have an abortion
74%   Having a baby would dramatically change my life
73%   Cannot afford a baby now
48%   Do not want to be a single mother or having relationship problems
38%   Have completed my childbearing
32%   Not ready for another child
25%   Do not want people to know I had sex or got pregnant
22%   Do not feel mature enough to raise another child
14%   Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion
13%   Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus
12%   Concerns about my health
6%   Parents want me to have an abortion
1%   Was a victim of rape
less than .5%   Became pregnant as a result of incest
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #159 on: May 23, 2019, 04:52:23 PM »
You're living in a bubble. Do you honestly think that the hundreds of thousands of women who have had abortions in this country are heartless people who just want to kill babies? Do you have any idea what it means for most of these people to go through the trauma of having an abortion? When democrats say that the republicans arguing for making abortion illegal are just women haters, it's people like you who they are reffering to.
Get a grip. Look at the list below of stats from 2004. What percentage of cases are even slightly justifiable? Does the fact that hundreds of thousands of people do it make it any better? Hundreds of thousands of people do horrific things - therefore we shouldn't call it out for what it is?

Are they heartless people? 100%
Do they just want to kill babies? Well, they have a reason, but it is a pathetic excuse for living a grotesque self-centered life where no one else counts.
Do I understand the trauma of an abortion? Perhaps not, but that is all the more reason not to do it. I've heard that some people live with pangs of guilt after doing an abortion. Barring an uncommon justifiable reason, they well deserve it. 

As far as "woman haters" go, it's a red herring. Classic liberal move to classify something as "hateful" or some other adjective without qualifying. "Hate" is a feeling that is sometimes justified, such as feeling hatred toward Nazis and rapists. So we need to ask a question: what type of hatred are we talking about (smart, isn't it?). If the answer is hate toward someone who would callously destroy their baby, well, that's a very valid form of disapproval, hate and disgust. 

Reason for choosing to have an abortion
74%   Having a baby would dramatically change my life
73%   Cannot afford a baby now
48%   Do not want to be a single mother or having relationship problems
38%   Have completed my childbearing
32%   Not ready for another child
25%   Do not want people to know I had sex or got pregnant
22%   Do not feel mature enough to raise another child
14%   Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion
13%   Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus
12%   Concerns about my health
6%   Parents want me to have an abortion
1%   Was a victim of rape
less than .5%   Became pregnant as a result of incest
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