Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 9517 times)

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #165 on: May 23, 2019, 05:20:40 PM »
Thanks for more reasons that don't reach the bar for ending a life, but perhaps they are far less common than you think, as per the chart above.
They are the 2nd and 3rd most common. Again these women could be misguided but to say they are heartless is highly suspect.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #166 on: May 23, 2019, 05:28:32 PM »
Get a grip. Look at the list below of stats from 2004. What percentage of cases are even slightly justifiable? Does the fact that hundreds of thousands of people do it make it any better? Hundreds of thousands of people do horrific things - therefore we shouldn't call it out for what it is?

Are they heartless people? 100%
Do they just want to kill babies? Well, they have a reason, but it is a pathetic excuse for living a grotesque self-centered life where no one else counts.
Do I understand the trauma of an abortion? Perhaps not, but that is all the more reason not to do it. I've heard that some people live with pangs of guilt after doing an abortion. Barring an uncommon justifiable reason, they well deserve it. 

As far as "woman haters" go, it's a red herring. Classic liberal move to classify something as "hateful" or some other adjective without qualifying. "Hate" is a feeling that is sometimes justified, such as feeling hatred toward Nazis and rapists. So we need to ask a question: what type of hatred are we talking about (smart, isn't it?). If the answer is hate toward someone who would callously destroy their baby, well, that's a very valid form of disapproval, hate and disgust. 

Reason for choosing to have an abortion
74%   Having a baby would dramatically change my life
73%   Cannot afford a baby now
48%   Do not want to be a single mother or having relationship problems
38%   Have completed my childbearing
32%   Not ready for another child
25%   Do not want people to know I had sex or got pregnant
22%   Do not feel mature enough to raise another child
14%   Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion
13%   Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus
12%   Concerns about my health
6%   Parents want me to have an abortion
1%   Was a victim of rape
less than .5%   Became pregnant as a result of incest
I wasn't saying that I think you hate women, I was saying that you are the kind of person they refer to when they say that the republicans just hate women. I personally think that you're just ignorant and your personal opinions on abortion are clouding your ability to recognize what these people are going through, whether what they end up doing is right or wrong. Again, I'm with you in the majority of cases, I don't think most abortions should take place. The problem becomes when you propose laws that don't allow for abortions to take place in the percentage of cases where it should be considered a viable option.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #167 on: May 23, 2019, 05:29:52 PM »
The bolded reasons seem like there were serious circumstances.

I'm not going to judge every case, but these don't sound like they are all heartless people. If you can't see past that, then I would encourage you to try to have half as much empathy for living women as you do for fetuses.
I suspect that "serious circumstances" is a code word for - in many of those cases - playing around before marriage. According to your logic, someone who did a dirty act deserves more empathy should she decide to terminate her baby because "having a baby would dramatically change my life". Sorry empathy denied. 

Yes, playing around (or not) and then wishing to kill your baby is heartless and I can't see past that.

And yes, I have much less empathy for killers than for the killed, as any sane, non-liberal person would.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #168 on: May 23, 2019, 05:33:34 PM »
I suspect that "serious circumstances" is a code word for - in many of those cases - playing around before marriage. According to your logic, someone who did a dirty act deserves more empathy should she decide to terminate her baby because "having a baby would dramatically change my life". Sorry empathy denied. 

Yes, playing around (or not) and then wishing to kill your baby is heartless and I can't see past that.

And yes, I have much less empathy for killers than for the killed, as any sane, non-liberal person would.
You are far too hung up on the change my life reason, which is going to be true of nearly everyone because it is a universal truth - babies change lives.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #169 on: May 23, 2019, 05:39:59 PM »
I wasn't saying that I think you hate women, I was saying that you are the kind of person they refer to when they say that the republicans just hate women.
Well then they would be widely off the mark, which is highly unsurprising.

I personally think that you're just ignorant and your personal opinions on abortion are clouding your ability to recognize what these people are going through, whether what they end up doing is right or wrong.
Let's say that I do not fully recognize what these people go through. OK. But if they do something wrong, which is usually the case, that means they murdered their baby, so it doesn't really make a difference as far as legislation goes.

Also remember that misplaced mercy on the wicked is actually a form of cruelty.

Again, I'm with you in the majority of cases, I don't think most abortions should take place. The problem becomes when you propose laws that don't allow for abortions to take place in the percentage of cases where it should be considered a viable option.

I want laws that would include exemptions for truly necessary situations. But never forget: they are far and away the minority of cases.


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Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #170 on: May 23, 2019, 05:44:23 PM »
You are far too hung up on the change my life reason, which is going to be true of nearly everyone because it is a universal truth - babies change lives.
OK so let's take many of the other reasons.

Do not want to be single, cannot afford it, don't want people to know that i'm pregnant (!), etc.

A lot of these reasons are code words for uncontrolled lust, but even the ones that aren't are no where near good reasons to snuff out a tiny breathing helpless soul that never wronged anyone and just wants to breathe. Talk about cruelty!!!
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #171 on: May 23, 2019, 10:27:50 PM »
@Shkop You can't hold individual women responsible for the fact that society considers abortion a valid choice.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #172 on: May 23, 2019, 10:31:14 PM »
https://thefederalist.com/2019/05/22/rape-victims-say-pregnancies/

An interesting addition to this conversation. (And no, I don't think all victims of rape feel this way, but it is a perspective that fits with a Torah hashkafa)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 10:56:52 PM by zh cohen »

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #173 on: May 23, 2019, 11:15:45 PM »
@Shkop You can't hold individual women responsible for the fact that society considers abortion a valid choice.
Says who?

Prior to the Mabul it was acceptable to take wives from anyone and robbery was rampant. These things became valid choices yet they were held fully accountable. The same goes for Sodom and Gemorrah. The fact that society considered persecuting visitors and guests a valid choice did not help anyone in the city. If you look throughout Tanach it's the same story.

The bottom line is that one is expected to consult with their brain, their conscience, or whatever it is that is in charge of their decision making and come to the not-so-difficult conclusion that killing the baby in their belly is a horrific, sub human thing to do.
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #174 on: May 24, 2019, 01:51:43 AM »
I feel there is some nuance missing here.

@Shkop Even if we could establish that from a secular standpoint abortion is the equivalent of murder, that does not make the huge number of women who have had abortions murderers in the normal sense of the word.  The vast majority of them would never ever ever consider killing a baby once born. They have been brainwashed by a society that pushes abortion as akin to removal of a tumor.   Abortion providers train their staff how to manipulate vulnerable women to ignore any hangups they may have. These are vulnerable woman who have been conditioned by society to think that abortion is the best option for them.  They must be treated with the utmost compassion. They are certainly not sub-human. They are not wicked.

@shaulyaakov Poverty is certainly a secondary concern that shouldn't come in to consideration at all and those statistics are very telling (assuming the are accurate.)  The mantra of the pro life movement until recently was "Safe Legal and Rare" which shows that even they realized that something as common as poverty or many of the other reasons on the list are not legitimate cause for abortion.   


Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #175 on: May 24, 2019, 08:23:24 AM »
One thing very clear to anyone reading this thread is that is had very little to do with religion or morality and a lot to do with politics.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #176 on: May 24, 2019, 09:40:07 AM »
One thing very clear to anyone reading this thread is that is had very little to do with religion or morality and a lot to do with politics.
This is true. What this argument really boils down to is essentially a machlokes between R' Moshe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe about how much we should push the government to be involved in morality and "zayin mitzvos." R' Moshe held very strongly against it and the Rebbe held very strongly for it. We can go back and forth for days but if you hold like one of them then you're probably not going to be persuaded to hold like the other.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #177 on: May 24, 2019, 11:10:15 AM »
This is true. What this argument really boils down to is essentially a machlokes between R' Moshe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe about how much we should push the government to be involved in morality and "zayin mitzvos." R' Moshe held very strongly against it and the Rebbe held very strongly for it. We can go back and forth for days but if you hold like one of them then you're probably not going to be persuaded to hold like the other.

There are actually 3 arguments going on here. One is the above-mentioned, and the other is the machlokes between the Tzitz Eliezer and R' Moshe (and many others) on the morality of abortion in general.

The third is lehavdil;

a machlokes haposkim between Rush Limbaugh and Rachel Maddow.

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #178 on: May 24, 2019, 11:13:38 AM »
There are actually 3 arguments going on here. One is the above-mentioned, and the other is the machlokes between the Tzitz Eliezer and R' Moshe (and many others) on the morality of abortion in general.

The third is lehavdil;

Interesting, because I only saw one argument here which you called the third and the opinions about the others were all being stuffed into that one.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #179 on: May 24, 2019, 12:28:56 PM »
I feel there is some nuance missing here.

@Shkop Even if we could establish that from a secular standpoint abortion is the equivalent of murder,
Granted that there are degrees of murder, but R' Moshe says that abortion is a form of Retzicha for Jew and Gentile alike.


 that does not make the huge number of women who have had abortions murderers in the normal sense of the word.  The vast majority of them would never ever ever consider killing a baby once born. They have been brainwashed by a society that pushes abortion as akin to removal of a tumor.  Abortion providers train their staff how to manipulate vulnerable women to ignore any hangups they may have. These are vulnerable woman who have been conditioned by society to think that abortion is the best option for them.  They must be treated with the utmost compassion. They are certainly not sub-human. They are not wicked.

@shaulyaakov Poverty is certainly a secondary concern that shouldn't come in to consideration at all and those statistics are very telling (assuming the are accurate.)  The mantra of the pro life movement until recently was "Safe Legal and Rare" which shows that even they realized that something as common as poverty or many of the other reasons on the list are not legitimate cause for abortion.

While there probably are young manipulative girls out there, or maybe some vulnerable women manipulated by the horrific staff, there are plenty that know very well or should know. People know what abortion is and it doesnít take a rocket scientist to do some very basic research. Google is your friend.

Recall how after the holocaust the Nazis cried that they were just following orders. I don't think anyone really bought into that argument because certain things aren't easily excusable like that. We find this idea in Talmud as well, such as "divrey harav vdivrey hatalmid..." as well as the idea that one can be liable for death if he should have learned (and known better) but didn't.
 
Furthermore, you write that even they know that poverty and other reasons are not legitimate cause for abortion. How do they know? Who informed them? Werenít they simply conditioned? The answer is that most people understand very clearly whatís happening. Of-course the staff that does the killing are partners in crime as well.

By the way, you donít have to be a Nazi or a knife wielding bandit with a mask on to be termed wicked. You can be a nice, sweet person who says good morning to everyone, but also thoroughly wicked because you callously killed your blameless baby that never did anything wrong.

And as far as compassion goes, the biggest compassion we can have on these women is to create legislation that will not allow more women or vulnerable brainwashed women and the horrific staff to kill babies. Its compassion on the child!
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