Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 8991 times)

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #225 on: May 27, 2019, 11:41:54 PM »
I don't know if this messes with anyone's argument, or is irrelevant, but I dislike that in the current situation, a woman gets to "choose" unilaterally.  If the fetus's father wants the baby he has no legal way of stopping the mother from aborting it.
I presume he can negotiate with her to keep it, but he has no legal rights.

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #226 on: May 28, 2019, 06:23:34 AM »
I don't know if this messes with anyone's argument, or is irrelevant, but I dislike that in the current situation, a woman gets to "choose" unilaterally.  If the fetus's father wants the baby he has no legal way of stopping the mother from aborting it.
I presume he can negotiate with her to keep it, but he has no legal rights.
I agree, if both people agreed to have sex then both people should have to sign off on the abortion (excluding cases where the mother's health is at risk.)
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Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #227 on: May 28, 2019, 10:15:01 AM »
 
I agree, if both people agreed to have sex then both people should have to sign off on the abortion (excluding cases where the mother's health is at risk.)
well is there a signed affidavit? ;D
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 12:48:43 PM by gingyguy »
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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #228 on: May 28, 2019, 11:47:55 AM »
well is there a signed affidavit?
Yes, federal law should require signing affidavits before engaging in consensual sex.
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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #229 on: May 28, 2019, 02:44:15 PM »
Yes, federal law should require signing affidavits before engaging in consensual sex.

We can give it a name. Maybe "marriage"? (And yes, I know marital rape is a thing)

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #230 on: May 28, 2019, 06:42:03 PM »
We can give it a name. Maybe "marriage"? (And yes, I know marital rape is a thing)
Just to be clear here, my previous post was tongue in cheek.
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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #231 on: May 28, 2019, 07:10:18 PM »
Just to be clear here, my previous post was tongue in cheek.

I know. But others had essentially suggested the same thing seriously up-thread

Offline Hirshthg

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #232 on: May 28, 2019, 09:07:38 PM »
2. "A fetus isn't a baby": Well, that's right, a fetus isn't a baby. Just the same way a baby isn't a child and a child isn't a teenager and a teenager isn't an adult. They're all at different developmental stages. But ultimately, they are all human. It's a human fetus. In fact, if you can handle it- take a look at these first trimester images and tell me that this isn't a human.

3. The rape/incest case: As horrible and as tragic as these cases are, getting an abortion doesn't take away the rape. Furthermore, the unborn child isn't guilty of the crimes of his father. How can we justify taking someone's innocent life for a crime he didn't commit?

On the scientific front things seem clear. A fetus is it's own human being, with it's own distinct set of DNA.
But things get murkier- what do we say to those babies being born into poverty, into immature and even neglectful families, those born with conditions that will make their life a struggle? What about those babies who are simply unwanted? Are they better off dead?

Great conversation. Here is an additional $0.02.

I don't think the abortion question should be tied to the rape question, or the danger to the mother, as follows.

We have a law against murder, and against vigilantism. May a rape victim murder their assailant? No, but most states have diminished culpability for extreme emotional disturbance or other forms of distress. The victim's pain doesn't make the murder legal, but it recognizes that its hard to blame the victim completely.

What if the assailant posses a active threat to the victim? The victim can use a justification defense of self defense, which is a complete exception to the laws against murder. its not only an exception to murder, but a general defense to any and all crimes.

So the question of whether a viable fetus is a human life deserving of equal protection (lets talk about 9 months, and past due) shouldn't be tied to the questions of saving the mother's life or rape. If the mother's life is in danger, she can kill all of her children, even if they are 15 years old, or 50 years old. If the mother really hates her 2 year old toddler because the dad raped her and she kills the kid, its murder. But maybe you can understand the mother and give her less jail time. These questions have nothing to do with general question of where life starts.

Doctors, medical boards, governments, and rabbis need to determine when life ends (its not always an easy question) and when life begins. No one asks if a rapist's life ends earlier because he hate him. We develop objective formulas for when lives are over. (brain waves, heart beats, viability, or other formulas.) Doctors, medical boards, governments, and rabbis also need to determine when life begins, generally. "feelings" of who is a person, is not how we usually determine these types of questions.

Remember when some people didn't feel blacks were people for purposes of constitutional rights or murder laws? These questions should not be decided by personal feelings, but by the civilized society.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #233 on: May 29, 2019, 01:37:04 AM »
Great conversation. Here is an additional $0.02.

I don't think the abortion question should be tied to the rape question, or the danger to the mother, as follows.

We have a law against murder, and against vigilantism. May a rape victim murder their assailant? No, but most states have diminished culpability for extreme emotional disturbance or other forms of distress. The victim's pain doesn't make the murder legal, but it recognizes that its hard to blame the victim completely.

What if the assailant posses a active threat to the victim? The victim can use a justification defense of self defense, which is a complete exception to the laws against murder. its not only an exception to murder, but a general defense to any and all crimes.

So the question of whether a viable fetus is a human life deserving of equal protection (lets talk about 9 months, and past due) shouldn't be tied to the questions of saving the mother's life or rape. If the mother's life is in danger, she can kill all of her children, even if they are 15 years old, or 50 years old. If the mother really hates her 2 year old toddler because the dad raped her and she kills the kid, its murder. But maybe you can understand the mother and give her less jail time. These questions have nothing to do with general question of where life starts.

Doctors, medical boards, governments, and rabbis need to determine when life ends (its not always an easy question) and when life begins. No one asks if a rapist's life ends earlier because he hate him. We develop objective formulas for when lives are over. (brain waves, heart beats, viability, or other formulas.) Doctors, medical boards, governments, and rabbis also need to determine when life begins, generally. "feelings" of who is a person, is not how we usually determine these types of questions.

Remember when some people didn't feel blacks were people for purposes of constitutional rights or murder laws? These questions should not be decided by personal feelings, but by the civilized society.

Well said

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #234 on: May 31, 2019, 06:32:41 AM »
I think we can all agree, it is virtually impossible to make men "responsible" for the pregnancies they cause in just about any way. Which is why it is so important that this stay a woman's decision because it doesn't really affect men.

I want to also point out that many of you are horrified at the prospect of proving that the pregnancy he caused was discussed and that the woman acknowledged the risk of an unplanned pregnancy is basically what many victims of assault go through. It is very hard to prove rape and many people don't even report it.

A fetus is also different from a child because it is a parasite until viability. Once artificial wombs are a real thing and you can transplant fetuses from a woman into an aritificial womb, there is a much stronger argument for forcing a transplant.

There are many long term minor and major health risks from pregnancy even if they aren't life threatening. Every pregnancy comes with a risk of maternal death in addition to many lifelong health conditions that are often triggered or worsened by pregnancy. The health risks may not be immediately dangerous to life and health but that doesn't mean they don't exist. 

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #235 on: May 31, 2019, 08:25:20 AM »
I think we can all agree, it is virtually impossible to make men "responsible" for the pregnancies they cause in just about any way. Which is why it is so important that this stay a woman's decision because it doesn't really affect men.

I want to also point out that many of you are horrified at the prospect of proving that the pregnancy he caused was discussed and that the woman acknowledged the risk of an unplanned pregnancy is basically what many victims of assault go through. It is very hard to prove rape and many people don't even report it.

A fetus is also different from a child because it is a parasite until viability. Once artificial wombs are a real thing and you can transplant fetuses from a woman into an aritificial womb, there is a much stronger argument for forcing a transplant.

There are many long term minor and major health risks from pregnancy even if they aren't life threatening. Every pregnancy comes with a risk of maternal death in addition to many lifelong health conditions that are often triggered or worsened by pregnancy. The health risks may not be immediately dangerous to life and health but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Boom.  Explains a lot.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #236 on: May 31, 2019, 08:30:42 AM »
Boom.  Explains a lot.

I'm not sure what you mean. Just because a fetus meets the definition of a parasite doesn't mean it can't be a loved and wanted fetus. Nor does it mean it doesn't have value. But it does mean that it depends on its host (AKA its mother) to provide all its nutrients at the expense to the mother. It is very different from a living child who can survive on its own. Nuance is very important in the discussion of abortions. If you assign a fetus the same rights as its mother you are essentially denying the mother her rights and you would never abort to save the life of the mother.

Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #237 on: May 31, 2019, 08:38:45 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean. Just because a fetus meets the definition of a parasite doesn't mean it can't be a loved and wanted fetus. Nor does it mean it doesn't have value. But it does mean that it depends on its host (AKA its mother) to provide all its nutrients at the expense to the mother. It is very different from a living child who can survive on its own. Nuance is very important in the discussion of abortions. If you assign a fetus the same rights as its mother you are essentially denying the mother her rights and you would never abort to save the life of the mother.
just wondering if you have kids...
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #238 on: May 31, 2019, 08:43:48 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean. Just because a fetus meets the definition of a parasite doesn't mean it can't be a loved and wanted fetus. Nor does it mean it doesn't have value. But it does mean that it depends on its host (AKA its mother) to provide all its nutrients at the expense to the mother. It is very different from a living child who can survive on its own. Nuance is very important in the discussion of abortions. If you assign a fetus the same rights as its mother you are essentially denying the mother her rights and you would never abort to save the life of the mother.
No one here has assigned the fetus the same rights as it's mother.  No one until now referred to it as a parasite.  That in my eyes is morally reprehensible and I doubt I can find much common ground with someone who thinks so.

Thought experiment.  A woman is stuck alone in the desert with her 10 day old baby.  She is the babies only source of sustenance,  only hope of survival.  She has enough food and water to make it out of the desert but carrying and feeding her baby will make her journey much much more difficult. Carrying her baby through the desert causes her intense pain.
Can she kill the baby?
 

Offline gingyguy

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #239 on: May 31, 2019, 08:51:14 AM »
No one here has assigned the fetus the same rights as it's mother.  No one until now referred to it as a parasite.  That in my eyes is morally reprehensible and I doubt I can find much common ground with someone who thinks so.
+1

Thought experiment.  A woman is stuck alone in the desert with her 10 day old baby.  She is the babies only source of sustenance,  only hope of survival.  She has enough food and water to make it out of the desert but carrying and feeding her baby will make her journey much much more difficult. Carrying her baby through the desert causes her intense pain.
Can she kill the baby?
 
no need to go to such an extreme example. lets find a woman that cant afford to feed her baby  and working extra hours causes her much hardship. can she kill her baby?
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