Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 8939 times)

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #240 on: May 31, 2019, 09:07:05 AM »
just wondering if you have kids...

Yes, I have 4 wonderful children. I'm curious if you've ever been pregnant and experienced health issues (major or minor) from carrying a pregnancy to full term. I have.

No one here has assigned the fetus the same rights as it's mother.  No one until now referred to it as a parasite.  That in my eyes is morally reprehensible and I doubt I can find much common ground with someone who thinks so.

Thought experiment.  A woman is stuck alone in the desert with her 10 day old baby.  She is the babies only source of sustenance,  only hope of survival.  She has enough food and water to make it out of the desert but carrying and feeding her baby will make her journey much much more difficult. Carrying her baby through the desert causes her intense pain.
Can she kill the baby?
 

Many of these new abortion laws do put the rights of the fetus in front of the rights of the mother, especially ones that have no exemptions for rape or incest. Restricting abortions before viability means that the fetus has the right to forces its mother to provide for it regardless of the effect to herself.  You may not view it that way, but that is basically what it comes down to.

A mother who has a living child and doesn't or cannot take care of it can give the baby away for someone else to care for. It is not the same thing. We can talk about fetus transplants when artificial wombs are a realistic option.

I know you are offended by the term parasite, and while parasites are usually different species, it affects the mom in the same way. 

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #241 on: May 31, 2019, 09:24:45 AM »
Yes, I have 4 wonderful children. I'm curious if you've ever been pregnant and experienced health issues (major or minor) from carrying a pregnancy to full term. I have.

Many of these new abortion laws do put the rights of the fetus in front of the rights of the mother, especially ones that have no exemptions for rape or incest. Restricting abortions before viability means that the fetus has the right to forces its mother to provide for it regardless of the effect to herself.  You may not view it that way, but that is basically what it comes down to.

A mother who has a living child and doesn't or cannot take care of it can give the baby away for someone else to care for. It is not the same thing. We can talk about fetus transplants when artificial wombs are a realistic option.

I know you are offended by the term parasite, and while parasites are usually different species, it affects the mom in the same way.

I have never been pregnant.  None of the laws I am aware of lack an exception for the life of the mother.  So no one puts the fetus' right to LIVE before the mothers right to LIVE.  What they do do is put the fetus' right to live before it's mother right to a pain-free life. 

I specifically posited a scenario where there is no one besides the mother who can care for the baby.  Can she kill the baby?

I was not offended by the term parasite but I think it helps put your point of view in context.  If you don't mind answering a  personal question, do you believe in G-d?

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #242 on: May 31, 2019, 09:37:00 AM »
A mother who has a living child and doesn't or cannot take care of it can give the baby away for someone else to care for. It is not the same thing. We can talk about fetus transplants when artificial wombs are a realistic option.
I'm having a hard time understanding this viability business.

If you use viability as a standard of whether something is human. Shouldn't it work to define the beginning and automatically the end too?

By the case of the desert she can't give the baby away. And therefore according to your standards that viability is what determines whether something is human. The child isn't either viable (survivable) without the adult.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #243 on: May 31, 2019, 10:00:56 AM »
Nuance is very important in the discussion of abortions.
LOL. This is like AOC telling Trump to be nuanced.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #244 on: May 31, 2019, 10:02:45 AM »
Restricting abortions before viability
One second, you are only discussing before viability?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #245 on: May 31, 2019, 10:30:38 AM »
I have never been pregnant.  None of the laws I am aware of lack an exception for the life of the mother.  So no one puts the fetus' right to LIVE before the mothers right to LIVE.  What they do do is put the fetus' right to live before it's mother right to a pain-free life. 

I specifically posited a scenario where there is no one besides the mother who can care for the baby.  Can she kill the baby?

I was not offended by the term parasite but I think it helps put your point of view in context.  If you don't mind answering a  personal question, do you believe in G-d?

Some of the laws do not allow exemptions for rape or incest or mental health and only allow for situations where the life of the mother is in immediate danger with the burden of proof on medical professional.   If a woman dies in childbirth for a pregnancy she wanted to terminate but wasn't determined to be "bad enough to terminate", who is liable? 

I think the better question about your desert question is if there is only enough food for one of them (the mother or the baby), who gets the food?  Questions about living children are very different from fetuses and should be unless you think they are equivalent. If they are equivalent, you would never

I do believe in G-d and I am fully observant. I am not worried about abortions for me. I have never been in a situation where I felt desperate for an abortion. I have family support, the financial means to take care of a baby and even my worst most debilitating pregnancy, where I was basically bedridden for a large chunk of it, was just hard for me and meant that I couldn't take care of my kids but I had plenty of people who could. I am definitely blessed.   

But I have also come in contact with people in sad, desperate situations, people who do need help and choose abortions for various reasons. They may not be reasons that I would choose. That is why I take the position that we should look at decreasing unwanted pregnancies rather than squeezing the people who are choosing abortions. I don't think anyone wants to have an abortion even when they choose one.   


Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #246 on: May 31, 2019, 10:31:25 AM »
One second, you are only discussing before viability?

Yes. I think discussions about abortions after viability are way more complicated. But 6 weeks is not the point of viability.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #247 on: May 31, 2019, 10:35:54 AM »
I'm having a hard time understanding this viability business.

If you use viability as a standard of whether something is human. Shouldn't it work to define the beginning and automatically the end too?

By the case of the desert she can't give the baby away. And therefore according to your standards that viability is what determines whether something is human. The child isn't either viable (survivable) without the adult.

Viability determines when the fetus turns into a child and can survive without the dependence of its host. All babies and young children need help to survive but it can be done by many people. Viability doesn't determine when someone is human. A fetus is human at conception. It is not a child at conception.

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #248 on: May 31, 2019, 11:16:49 AM »
Yes. I think discussions about abortions after viability are way more complicated. But 6 weeks is not the point of viability.
I would reword that to say that it is a different discussion after it is considered to be its own living entity. My understanding now is that this is essentially your opinion, which I did not understand until now and I don't think that others here did either.
Viability determines when the fetus turns into a child and can survive without the dependence of its host. All babies and young children need help to survive but it can be done by many people. Viability doesn't determine when someone is human. A fetus is human at conception. It is not a child at conception.
This is already an opinion which is debatable. Either way, you seem to be agreeing that once it is considered to be its own living entity then all of the responsibility questions and the like are no longer applicable. In that case, you should be able to at least understand the opinions of those who feel that they cannot be taken into consideration earlier than what you feel as being simply because they feel that it is considered to be its own entity earlier than you do. With that said you should understand why all of the arguments you have made here seem to be falling on deaf ears. They are not accepting your premise. The rest is the logical argument which you seem to be agreeing to.
BTW, I don't understand your difference between a human and a child.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #249 on: May 31, 2019, 12:32:49 PM »

Many of these new abortion laws do put the rights of the fetus in front of the rights of the mother, especially ones that have no exemptions for rape or incest.
The product of rape or incest is not guilty of the crime of its father.  So, sad as the situation is for the  mother, the issue of abortion remains the same.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #250 on: May 31, 2019, 12:58:32 PM »
Which is why it is so important that this stay a woman's decision because it doesn't really affect men.

A fetus is also different from a child because it is a parasite until viability.
Restricting abortions before viability means that the fetus has the right to force its mother to provide for it regardless of the effect to herself.  You may not view it that way, but that is basically what it comes down to.


I do believe in G-d and I am fully observant.   

But I have also come in contact with people in sad, desperate situations, people who do need help and choose abortions for various reasons. They may not be reasons that I would choose. That is why I take the position that we should look at decreasing unwanted pregnancies rather than squeezing the people who are choosing abortions. I don't think anyone wants to have an abortion even when they choose one.
A fetus is human at conception.
You can't have it both ways. If you are observant, you submit to halacha. R' Moshe, one of the greatest poskim in the last century, writes that abortion is murder for Jew and gentile alike. Most major poskim are of like opinion.

The fact that you came across sad situations where people choose abortion doesn't change anything. Unfortunately life can be difficult but we wont start changing the rules because of that.

Yes, we should very much hold people in contempt if they murder their very own baby because the fetus is a human as you correctly state. 
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Offline chevron

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #251 on: May 31, 2019, 02:04:22 PM »
Without reading it all,  im curious, do they need the father's consent to abort?

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #252 on: May 31, 2019, 02:27:03 PM »
I would reword that to say that it is a different discussion after it is considered to be its own living entity. My understanding now is that this is essentially your opinion, which I did not understand until now and I don't think that others here did either.This is already an opinion which is debatable. Either way, you seem to be agreeing that once it is considered to be its own living entity then all of the responsibility questions and the like are no longer applicable. In that case, you should be able to at least understand the opinions of those who feel that they cannot be taken into consideration earlier than what you feel as being simply because they feel that it is considered to be its own entity earlier than you do. With that said you should understand why all of the arguments you have made here seem to be falling on deaf ears. They are not accepting your premise. The rest is the logical argument which you seem to be agreeing to.
BTW, I don't understand your difference between a human and a child.


The conversation changes past viability because you could make the argument that the child should be induced. But the reasons people have later term abortions are generally different than earlier. I think it is a very different conversation. Once you are past viability, there are different ethical questions that arise.

I don't understand your second point. Are you saying that people believe a fetus before viability is a fully functioning baby? If so, why not just induce women at 8 weeks and see if the baby survives? Or am I misunderstanding your position?

Human is the species. You are human as a fetus. Then you change into a human baby, human toddler, human child, human teenager, human adult. You are always human from the moment of conception. 


Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #253 on: May 31, 2019, 02:38:45 PM »
You can't have it both ways. If you are observant, you submit to halacha. R' Moshe, one of the greatest poskim in the last century, writes that abortion is murder for Jew and gentile alike. Most major poskim are of like opinion.

The fact that you came across sad situations where people choose abortion doesn't change anything. Unfortunately life can be difficult but we wont start changing the rules because of that.

Yes, we should very much hold people in contempt if they murder their very own baby because the fetus is a human as you correctly state. 


Did you read the interview with Rabbi Tendler?  He talks about R'Moshe Feinstein wanting the government out of regulating ethics and morals.

You just seem to want to vilify women who are desperate. I want to fix the problems that lead them to be desperate to begin with.

You also seem to lack empathy for these women. Some of the women I know had heterim from their rabbi. But it is good to know that somehow I'm in the wrong for empathizing with these desperate women because you've decided their heter doesn't follow halacha somehow. 

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #254 on: May 31, 2019, 02:43:19 PM »
But the reasons people have later term abortions are generally different than earlier. I think it is a very different conversation. Once you are past viability, there are different ethical questions that arise.
The different conversations amount to the same thing: Murder.

According to the Gutmacher Institute (as per Wikipedia), the three most common reasons to abort are:
74%   Having a baby would dramatically change my life
73%   Cannot afford a baby now
48%   Do not want to be a single mother or having relationship problems

According to that same study, the reasons for late abortions are:

71%   Woman did not recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48%   Woman had found it hard to make arrangements for an earlier abortion
33%   Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24%   Woman took time to decide to have an abortion

All ultra-selfish and grotesque reasons to murder.
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