Author Topic: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality  (Read 9150 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #255 on: May 31, 2019, 02:50:52 PM »
The conversation changes past viability because you could make the argument that the child should be induced. But the reasons people have later term abortions are generally different than earlier. I think it is a very different conversation. Once you are past viability, there are different ethical questions that arise.

I don't understand your second point. Are you saying that people believe a fetus before viability is a fully functioning baby? If so, why not just induce women at 8 weeks and see if the baby survives? Or am I misunderstanding your position?

Human is the species. You are human as a fetus. Then you change into a human baby, human toddler, human child, human teenager, human adult. You are always human from the moment of conception. 


My point is that you chose viability as a line between it having its own rights or not. If it has its own rights then it becomes a different conversation than what you have been saying in this thread. This line of viability is of your choosing. Others may draw this line elsewhere with the same ramifications as your line of viability.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #256 on: May 31, 2019, 02:59:41 PM »
My point is that you chose viability as a line between it having its own rights or not. If it has its own rights then it becomes a different conversation than what you have been saying in this thread. This line of viability is of your choosing. Others may draw this line elsewhere with the same ramifications as your line of viability.

Then you can also understand that other people put the line much later than the earliest viability for various reasons as well. I do think that largely, viability is a logical point to discuss because the fetus can survive on its own at that point even if it would benefit from further time inside the womb.  The way I view the various timelines (which people can disagree with, but I think makes sense):

1) Beginning of conception to the end of Plan B timing
2) Post Plan B to viability
3) Viability to birth

One that could be added between 1 and 2 is based on heartbeat detected.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #257 on: May 31, 2019, 03:01:19 PM »
Did you read the interview with Rabbi Tendler?  He talks about R'Moshe Feinstein wanting the government out of regulating ethics and morals.
Irrelevant point. There is a big difference between Halacha and Hashkafah. R' Moshe did not say that abortion is muttar.
Regarding the Hashkafic point, there are many counter opinions. Regarding Halacha, the vast majority of poskim are very much against abortion.

You just seem to want to vilify women who are desperate. I want to fix the problems that lead them to be desperate to begin with.
I'm sorry that you see it that way. The truth is that I want to vilify killing babies. It so happens to be that the killers are women. Gender is irrelevant.
How about fixing the problem while circumventing murder?

You also seem to lack empathy for these women. Some of the women I know had heterim from their rabbi. But it is good to know that somehow I'm in the wrong for empathizing with these desperate women because you've decided their heter doesn't follow halacha somehow.
I hope they are approaching a world renowned posek for such a serious question rather than just a shul rabbi, but obviously that is much better than not asking anyone at all. 

That said, your empathy has nothing to do with halacha. You mention halacha tangentially only because I brought it up. Until now it was about your feelings on a women's right to choose. You feel for women and understand that they have a right to choose. You say we shouldn't squeeze people that want abortions.

The truth is, however, that we should vilify such people if that helps prevent the death of even one innocent human being.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #258 on: May 31, 2019, 03:09:36 PM »
Irrelevant point. There is a big difference between Halacha and Hashkafah. R' Moshe did not say that abortion is muttar.
Regarding the Hashkafic point, there are many counter opinions. Regarding Halacha, the vast majority of poskim are very much against abortion.
I'm sorry that you see it that way. The truth is that I want to vilify killing babies. It so happens to be that the killers are women. Gender is irrelevant.
How about fixing the problem while circumventing murder?
I hope they are approaching a world renowned posek for such a serious question rather than just a shul rabbi, but obviously that is much better than not asking anyone at all. 

That said, your empathy has nothing to do with halacha. You mention halacha tangentially only because I brought it up. Until now it was about your feelings on a women's right to choose. You feel for women and understand that they have a right to choose. You say we shouldn't squeeze people that want abortions.

The truth is, however, that we should vilify such people if that helps prevent the death of even one innocent human being.

You brought up R' Moshe and then discount him? I'm really confused. 


Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #259 on: May 31, 2019, 03:19:31 PM »
Then you can also understand that other people put the line much later than the earliest viability for various reasons as well. I do think that largely, viability is a logical point to discuss because the fetus can survive on its own at that point even if it would benefit from further time inside the womb.  The way I view the various timelines (which people can disagree with, but I think makes sense):

1) Beginning of conception to the end of Plan B timing
2) Post Plan B to viability
3) Viability to birth

One that could be added between 1 and 2 is based on heartbeat detected.

Fetus's don't exist during the Plan B timing. Plan B works by blocking the sperm from accessing the egg. Sperm can live for about 5 days before either dying or fertilizing. Plan B is not an abortion as it would only work pre-fertilization. If you are going to try to talk about abortion regulations, it is a good idea to understand basic biology first. So while Plan B is only effective for 5 days, once the egg is fertilized (which could happen much faster depending on the woman's ovulation cycle), it is useless.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #260 on: May 31, 2019, 03:19:54 PM »
You brought up R' Moshe and then discount him? I'm really confused.
Don't be.

I brought him up regarding halacha because he is the most important name (in my opinion) on halachic questions.
But it isn't just him...the majority of poskim concur.

Let's say we had a case where R' Moshe was in the minority. Take for example chalav stam.
The majority of poskim disagree with R' Moshe there, so I wouldn't keep stressing his view in such a conversation, despite his eminence. 

Next.

Hashkafah. First off, you can't equate halacha which is more defined with hashkafah which is less so.
That said, there are many opinions (such as, the Lubavitcher Rebbe and R' Miller) that disagree. So hashkafically, R' Moshe was being cautious more so than others.

 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 04:01:01 PM by Shkop »
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #261 on: May 31, 2019, 06:54:46 PM »
Then you can also understand that other people put the line much later than the earliest viability for various reasons as well. I do think that largely, viability is a logical point to discuss because the fetus can survive on its own at that point even if it would benefit from further time inside the womb.  The way I view the various timelines (which people can disagree with, but I think makes sense):

1) Beginning of conception to the end of Plan B timing
2) Post Plan B to viability
3) Viability to birth

One that could be added between 1 and 2 is based on heartbeat detected.
You are so busy arguing that you don't even know what you are arguing about.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #262 on: June 01, 2019, 02:24:16 PM »
Some of the laws do not allow exemptions for rape or incest or mental health and only allow for situations where the life of the mother is in immediate danger with the burden of proof on medical professional.   If a woman dies in childbirth for a pregnancy she wanted to terminate but wasn't determined to be "bad enough to terminate", who is liable? 
Maybe no one. If there was an indication that there was risk to her life if she carried to term then halacha and all US laws I am aware of are in agreement that termination is allowed.  Refer to medical malpractice law.  Completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Quote
I think the better question about your desert question is if there is only enough food for one of them (the mother or the baby), who gets the food?  Questions about living children are very different from fetuses and should be unless you think they are equivalent. If they are equivalent, you would never
Please answer the desert question as I presented it.
You think that is a better question because it avoids you having to take your position to an uncomfortable conclusion. You are arguing that the mothers right to a pain-free life takes precedence over the LIFE of the fetus because it "is a parasite" meaning it relies solely on her, at a cost to her, and no one else can take care of it.  A similar situation can occur with a new born baby or a 5 year old child for that matter.  According to the arguments you've put forward so far, I can see no reason why a woman, whose life is made miserable by her 5 year old child and there is no way for her to give him to someone else, wouldn't be morally justified in killing her child.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 03:51:51 PM by Boruch999 »

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #263 on: June 01, 2019, 06:45:40 PM »
Don't be.

I brought him up regarding halacha because he is the most important name (in my opinion) on halachic questions.
But it isn't just him...the majority of poskim concur.


Let's say we had a case where R' Moshe was in the minority. Take for example chalav stam.
The majority of poskim disagree with R' Moshe there, so I wouldn't keep stressing his view in such a conversation, despite his eminence. 

Next.

Hashkafah. First off, you can't equate halacha which is more defined with hashkafah which is less so.
That said, there are many opinions (such as, the Lubavitcher Rebbe and R' Miller) that disagree. So hashkafically, R' Moshe was being cautious more so than others.
But you can agree that there are major poskim who definitely permit abortions in certain cases? I don't understand why you've taken it upon yourself to become the champion of R' Moshe's opinion and use that to say that anyone who has ever had an abortion is a cold-blooded murderer. If someone has a psak from the Tzitz Elierzer that it's muttar in their case to have an abortion you would tell that person that R' Moshe said it's assur so they shouldn't do it? I think we all agree here that every frum jew should be following halacha when it comes to abortions, you're just taking it a step further and giving a worldwide psak to everyone that they must follow R' Moshe because "most poskim" agree to him. Quite frankly, who are you? It's not your job to do so and it seems to me like you're just using that the promote your personal beliefs about abortion. Every person who has a situation where they feel they want to have an abortion should ask a qualified posek and follow whatever psak they get, it's not your job to tell people what that psak should or will be.

With regards to the hashkafik question, it boils down to what I mentioned upthread; a machlokes between R' Moshe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe ( I'm sure there are others who have spoken about it as well) about how much we, as frum jews, should want the government involved in morals and the like.

All this other talk brought up here about viability or reasons for why people have an abortion are really irrelevant. AFAIK halacha only sees a difference before and after 40 days, someone can CMIIW. If you want to know what halacha says about abortions then you know the differing opinions about if and when it is ever muttar and if you want to know whether or not the government should be involved, we know the gedolim's views on that as well. All this back and forth in this thread is really pointless, feel free to hold like whichever of the gedolim on whichever topic you'd like but it seems like everyone is just trying to find halachic reasons to validate their own preconceived opinions on abortions.
/rant
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Offline chinagel

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #264 on: June 01, 2019, 10:40:01 PM »
But you can agree that there are major poskim who definitely permit abortions in certain cases? I don't understand why you've taken it upon yourself to become the champion of R' Moshe's opinion and use that to say that anyone who has ever had an abortion is a cold-blooded murderer. If someone has a psak from the Tzitz Elierzer that it's muttar in their case to have an abortion you would tell that person that R' Moshe said it's assur so they shouldn't do it? I think we all agree here that every frum jew should be following halacha when it comes to abortions, you're just taking it a step further and giving a worldwide psak to everyone that they must follow R' Moshe because "most poskim" agree to him.
LOL. You make it sound like it's a question of where to light Chanuka neiros.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #265 on: June 01, 2019, 11:03:53 PM »
But you can agree that there are major poskim who definitely permit abortions in certain cases? I don't understand why you've taken it upon yourself to become the champion of R' Moshe's opinion and use that to say that anyone who has ever had an abortion is a cold-blooded murderer. If someone has a psak from the Tzitz Elierzer that it's muttar in their case to have an abortion you would tell that person that R' Moshe said it's assur so they shouldn't do it? I think we all agree here that every frum jew should be following halacha when it comes to abortions, you're just taking it a step further and giving a worldwide psak to everyone that they must follow R' Moshe because "most poskim" agree to him. Quite frankly, who are you? It's not your job to do so and it seems to me like you're just using that the promote your personal beliefs about abortion. Every person who has a situation where they feel they want to have an abortion should ask a qualified posek and follow whatever psak they get, it's not your job to tell people what that psak should or will be.

With regards to the hashkafik question, it boils down to what I mentioned upthread; a machlokes between R' Moshe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe ( I'm sure there are others who have spoken about it as well) about how much we, as frum jews, should want the government involved in morals and the like.

All this other talk brought up here about viability or reasons for why people have an abortion are really irrelevant. AFAIK halacha only sees a difference before and after 40 days, someone can CMIIW. If you want to know what halacha says about abortions then you know the differing opinions about if and when it is ever muttar and if you want to know whether or not the government should be involved, we know the gedolim's views on that as well. All this back and forth in this thread is really pointless, feel free to hold like whichever of the gedolim on whichever topic you'd like but it seems like everyone is just trying to find halachic reasons to validate their own preconceived opinions on abortions.
/rant
Every single posek agrees that standard abortion is murder.
Even in specific cases the majority insist that it is strictly forbidden.
So, yes Halacha views abortion as murder, despite your silly rant.

The fact is that your views of free rights etc. all stem from a liberal mindset which doesn't amount to anything.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #266 on: June 01, 2019, 11:40:08 PM »
Every single posek agrees that standard abortion is murder.
Even in specific cases the majority insist that it is strictly forbidden.
So, yes Halacha views abortion as murder, despite your silly rant.

The fact is that your views of free rights etc. all stem from a liberal mindset which doesn't amount to anything.
I am totally convinced that your opinion is coming not from halacha but from your political positions.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #267 on: June 01, 2019, 11:53:27 PM »
I am totally convinced that your opinion is coming not from halacha but from your political positions.
umm, the halacha is clear so I'm right regardless. The truth is actually the other way around. Many libs here spout all the "women's rights" foolishness, but when confronted with halacha go running to find someone to back them up. They ignore the vast majority of opinions which includes heavyweights like R' Moshe because they never really cared much in the first place. You strike me as belonging to that group.
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Offline yelped

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #268 on: June 02, 2019, 12:02:36 AM »
umm, the halacha is clear so I'm right regardless. The truth is actually the other way around. Many libs here spout all the "women's rights" foolishness, but when confronted with halacha go running to find someone to back them up. They ignore the vast majority of opinions which includes heavyweights like R' Moshe because they never really cared much in the first place. You strike me as belonging to that group.
You didn't address what @aygart said, besides insulting him.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality
« Reply #269 on: June 02, 2019, 12:17:39 AM »
You didn't address what @aygart said, besides insulting him.
What political positions? Like the position of some clown on the radio? No, I couldn't care less.
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