Author Topic: Where did you spot Dan?  (Read 2194 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2019, 10:53:23 AM »
Keep YT on days of locals - except for shavous.
-1.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2019, 10:53:56 AM »
-1.
It's not common Chabad practice to keep shavous based on day 50 of your personal count?

Offline Dan

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2019, 10:55:18 AM »
It's not common Chabad practice to keep shavous based on day 50 of your personal count?

No idea what you're talking about. I kept one day Shavuos on my 50th day, Sunday, just like the locals did.
Chabad rabonim in E"Y make no differentiation where you happen to live.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2019, 10:56:55 AM »
If @jj1000 would have come to Israel this year after Pesach in Australia I think he only would have had Shavuos on Shabbos!

Isn't this the thing where if you happened to cross the dateline and are ahead/behind in the count 1 day, then you keep shavous on a different day?

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2019, 11:00:06 AM »
Not talking about you specifically.

A general comment about:
Quote
In general shitas Chabad is that you do Shabbos/YT according to the local custom, so one day Shabbos in Hawaii/NZ as well.

Offline Dan

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2019, 11:05:03 AM »
Isn't this the thing where if you happened to cross the dateline and are ahead/behind in the count 1 day, then you keep shavous on a different day?
Not talking about you specifically.

A general comment about:
That's a rare situation and a unique part of Sefira, U'sfartem lachem.

And even if you do that (and every Chabad Rov will say to avoid it if possible) you still can't do any melacha on 6 (and 7 in chu"l) Sivan.
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Offline ~King Lake~

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2019, 11:26:11 AM »
Isn't this the thing where if you happened to cross the dateline and are ahead/behind in the count 1 day, then you keep shavous on a different day?
i know someone (chabad) who came from Australia during sefira and held shvuos from one day before everyone, we actually went visiting him erev shvuos and he was in the middle of his seudah!
I'm going crazy, wanna come along?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2019, 11:32:58 AM »
i know someone (chabad) who came from Australia during sefira and held shvuos from one day before everyone, we actually went visiting him erev shvuos and he was in the middle of his seudah!

He must have had some הכרח גמור to cross the dateline, rather than take a slightly longer (and possibly costlier) route.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2019, 11:42:07 AM »
He must have had some הכרח גמור to cross the dateline, rather than take a slightly longer (and possibly costlier) route.
that's right
I'm going crazy, wanna come along?

Offline gozalim

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2019, 04:05:52 PM »
That is the generally accepted psak of Chabad rabonim in E"Y for anyone in E"Y. No difference where you live.
In general shitas Chabad is that you do Shabbos/YT according to the local custom, so one day Shabbos in Hawaii/NZ as well.
an oversimplification which results in other uninformed conflating 3 different issues.


1.
That is the generally accepted psak of Chabad rabonim in E"Y for anyone in E"Y. No difference where you live.
In general shitas Chabad is that you do Shabbos/YT according to the local custom
a general statement in מהדו"ב which has some implications for יו"ט שני and דעתו לחזור discussions. not to be confused with the הלכה that in general shabbos and yom tov (and dates in general) are followed by location, not personal count (hence no personal shabbos when crossing the dateline). Shavuos is an exception to this הלכה.

2.yom tov sheni - not all rabbonim pasken alike, and there is difference between bochurim/those who have families left behind in חו"ל/and those who arrive accompanied by families (it is my impression that this last example is where #1 plays the most role, ignoring דעתו לחזור)

3. Shavuos- the yom tov of shavuos is celebrated on day 50 of one's personal sefira, regardless of local date. (so one who (מפני הכרח גמור,) crosses the dateline, keeps his own day of yom tov, yet does not say "זמן מתן תורתנו" in davening any day other than local ו-ז סיון)

4.
so one day Shabbos in Hawaii/NZ as well.
the location of the dateline is a separate machlokes haposkim. the rebbe addressed it, but the מסקנא  (in that letter) is hardly so clear-cut in some locations. (australia/NZ more clear, hawaii/alaska less so. fiji i really have no clue if anyone even asked). for some reason chabad rabbonim have concluded as you mentioned.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 04:44:11 PM by gozalim »

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2019, 04:36:06 PM »
2.yom tov sheni - not all rabbonim pasken alike, and there is difference between bochurim/those who have families left behind in חו"ל/and those who arrive accompanied by families (it is my impression that this last example is where #1 plays the most role, ignoring דעתו לחזור)
I don't know that the Rebbe ever got involved in ruling about בן חו"ל who is in ארץ ישראל (though famously R' Mendel Futerfas "agreed" to assume a position in Kfar Chabad in some way that resulted in him always keeping 2 days Y"T IINM). However, there were definitely different indications from the Rebbe regarding בני ארץ-ישראל that came to be Y"T with the Rebbe at different times. With the משנה אחרונה seemingly being that they should observe Y"T just like the Rebbe - 2 days, though I believe בני ארץ-ישראל that kept 2 days when coming to the Rebbe were not given aliyos on 2nd day Y"T, or daven by the Omud.

4.the location of the dateline is a separate machlokes haposkim. the rebbe addressed it, but the מסקנא  (in that letter) is hardly so clear-cut in some locations. (australia/NZ more clear, hawaii/alaska less so. fiji i really have no clue if anyone even asked). for some reason chabad rabbonim have concluded as you mentioned.
Where did the Rebbe address the location of the line, or come to a conclusion about it? In any event, there's definitely added complexity when talking about places that have changed their date at times in history. See: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16351377 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Date_Line#Historical_alterations which might present a problem even with the Philippines! There are definitely people (some shluchim to Australia) who were instructed to avoid crossing the IDL year-round.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline gozalim

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2019, 04:42:43 PM »
Where did the Rebbe address the location of the line, or come to a conclusion about it?
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15944&pgnum=297
(same letter also printed in igros)

There are definitely people (some shluchim to Australia) who were instructed to avoid crossing the IDL year-round.
this would be irrelevant to where the dateline is (which australia is one place that the rebbe in that letter explicitly paskens about)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 04:46:44 PM by gozalim »

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2019, 04:55:53 PM »
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15944&pgnum=297
(same letter also printed in igros)
Thank you, I was unfamiliar with the letter from תש"ט.

this would be irrelevant to where the dateline is (which australia is one place that the rebbe in that letter explicitly paskens about)
In the letter from תש"ט the Rebbe merely points that according to a majority of opinions (לאפוקי דעת יחיד, that might even agree regarding the יישוב of Australia, as the line would cross through Australia according to that opinion) days in Australia should be counted just like they are counted on the civil calendar.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline gozalim

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2019, 04:58:30 PM »
Thank you, I was unfamiliar with the letter from תש"ט.
In the letter from תש"ט the Rebbe merely points that according to a majority of opinions (לאפוקי דעת יחיד, that might even agree regarding the יישוב of Australia, as the line would cross through Australia according to that opinion) days in Australia should be counted just like they are counted on the civil calendar.
דהיינו they keep shabbos/yom-tov on the normal days (not the way said דעת יחיד required in kobe during the war, and the way some require in hawaii)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Where did you spot Dan?
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2019, 06:54:57 PM »
דהיינו they keep shabbos/yom-tov on the normal days (not the way said דעת יחיד required in kobe during the war, and the way some require in hawaii)

Fascinating read (that makes lots of sense IMHO) on the topic of actual location of dateline here (earlier pages are the השגות to which he's responding).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan