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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 14281 times)

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2019, 11:04:54 PM »
No need for me to respond where שלמה המלך already did.

You might want to look up the exception that the gemarah gives to that advice

Offline Baruch

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #106 on: July 09, 2019, 11:14:07 PM »
If Wikipedia is right about the Rebbe's response, why did Rav Yoel Kahan, (whom R' Manis Friedman (in last week's Ami) described as the most brilliant man to live in the past few generations), think the Rebbe was Moshiach?

(Someone I know asked Rav Yoel when the Rebbe was sick, what's he gonna say if the Rebbe dies? He responded "if after 6000 years the world doesn't end, what are you gonna say? The answer is it's not gonna happen - the world will end, the Rebbe won't die.)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 11:46:28 PM by Baruch »

Online ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #107 on: July 09, 2019, 11:22:29 PM »
If Wikipedia is right about the Rebbe's response, why did Rav Yoel Kahan, (whom R' Manis Friedman (in last week's Ami) described as the most brilliant man to live in the past few generations), think the Rebbe was Moshiach?

עמי מאגאזין אוויקיפעדיא קשיא.  ::)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #108 on: July 09, 2019, 11:40:04 PM »


I understand the answer that maybe it wasn't meant that way or taken out of context, but that is only a partial answer for something of such magnitude. It is also not the reaction that there has been in this thread about those who took it at face value and found it problematic. Saying "It wasn't meant that way" means that the way it sounds is truly problematic. Until your post, I have not seen any "Lubavitchers" concede that it any way at all. Do you concede that?

Was this really typed now about an interview from 30 years ago? Maybe I missed it, but I saw no indication of that.

This that they are all still wearing Tefillin he seems to be explaining by saying that what seems to have occurred isn't really as it seems but that he doesn't understand how rather than that the entire premise that it would be a reason to stop wearing Tefillin is incorrect.

I should follow my gut instincts and stay out of these threads. Suffice to say that if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss.
Quote from: ExGingi
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Offline Baruch

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #109 on: July 09, 2019, 11:45:22 PM »
עמי מאגאזין אוויקיפעדיא קשיא.  ::)
lol

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2019, 06:42:27 AM »
I understand how you are interpreting it and note that no other explanation has been offered other than @Yehuda57 seeming to say that it wasn't meant that way at all.
There is no other explanation. The whole moshiach thing is a diversion from the real issue. They very seldom clearly articulate their beliefs. You have to pin them down like we did to exgingi or read between the lines and understand what they are really saying.
Definitely let's not keep our heads in the sand and make as if this all doesn't exist.
This comment in the article is clear as day to whoever wants to see what's really happened.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2019, 07:47:53 AM »

I should follow my gut instincts and stay out of these threads. Suffice to say that if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss.
So should I.

Great. Happy to hear that. So, how is one supposed to take such a statement?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2019, 08:17:03 AM »
So, how is one supposed to take such a statement?

Well, I would say that someone who has יראת שמים and is baffled when seeing such a statement, should assume that he might be lacking in understanding, and seek to understand what is going on. But when יראת שמים is non-existant, then everything is OK, such as making assumptions, accusations, etc.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2019, 09:05:58 AM »
So should I.

Great. Happy to hear that. So, how is one supposed to take such a statement?
I'm the wrong person to ask, I couldn't care less about it. I barely skimmed through the article and only did that because of this thread. It doesn't affect my life.

Had you walked into the gimmel tammuz farbrengen I was at, you might have heard a line like, "and if you're going to daven without sending a tweet first, you might as well marry a shiksa."

Now no amount of context will ever make that statement unproblematic. But, I have full confidence that you would have walked away from the farbrengen inspired, and your davenning the next day would have been immeasurably better.

But even had I not been at the farbrengen to hear the context and had just walked by for a second and heard that line, I would know the person wasn't advocating using twitter at all, let alone during davenning, and even if twitter is done sort of weird metaphor for a tool to improve davenning, he still wouldn't be advocating intermarriage for those who don't daven "properly" - or even at all. Mind you, this person is a Shliach on campus and devotes much of his life to preventing intermarriage. Because I know this person is a frum Yid who lives by the shulchan aruch.

If your baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs. I mean the Rebbe literally made yafutzu maaynosecha chutza a life mission for every chossid, and Lubavitchers will jump at every opportunity to teach you even one word of chassidus. But if you treat Chabad like any other group, a problematic statement might raise an eyebrow, sure, but you'll move on with your day.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2019, 09:13:48 AM »
Well, I would say that someone who has יראת שמים and is baffled when seeing such a statement, should assume that he might be lacking in understanding, and seek to understand what is going on. But when יראת שמים is non-existant, then everything is OK, such as making assumptions, accusations, etc.

One second, are you (and @Yehuda57)  really understanding the issue to be one about wearing tefillin? I assure you that, as terrible as פושעי ישראל בגופן would be, it is totally ancillary to the theological issues with such a statement. Meanwhile, unfortunately, @churnbabychurn is absolutely correct that there has been nothing but beating around the bush and still no real explanation for the theology behind such a statement other than the one presented by him or that it wasn't meant that way at all (which would bring us back to my earlier comment). Meanwhile, any attempts to understand what is going on have been met with obfuscations.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2019, 09:42:28 AM »
If your baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs. I mean the Rebbe literally made yafutzu maaynosecha chutza a life mission for every chossid, and Lubavitchers will jump at every opportunity to teach you even one word of chassidus. But if you treat Chabad like any other group, a problematic statement might raise an eyebrow, sure, but you'll move on with your day.
I assure you that this is not my baseline. I fully understand that there was no advocating not wearing tefilin just like there was no advocating of intermarriage.

To be honest, @churnbabychurn has expressed similar concern about statements along similar lines by groups other than Lubavitch as well.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2019, 09:51:15 AM »
How is this any different than what I wrote here?

The issue was not with what you wrote, but rather with the context in the article that took things to the point that most would consider kefira.



ďAtzmus Ein Sof enclothed itself in a physical body and speaks Yiddish, English and Russian in order to be mekarev Jews to JudaismĒ

ďBut it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body, because if that were possible, I donít need a Rebbe, because I have Moshe Rabbeinu. The ispashtusa of Moshe in every generation is in a physical body, otherwise, they lied to us. Rí Yoel Kahn said that if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila ď

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2019, 10:22:52 AM »
One second, are you (and @Yehuda57)  really understanding the issue to be one about wearing tefillin? I assure you that, as terrible as פושעי ישראל בגופן would be, it is totally ancillary to the theological issues with such a statement.

No. I think we have decent reading comprehension. While I can only speak for myself, I can still read @Yehuda57's post and see there that he and I are saying the same thing, even if not explicitly spelled out ברחל בתך הקטנה.

The issue is:

Well, I would say that someone who has יראת שמים and is baffled when seeing such a statement, should assume that he might be lacking in understanding, and seek to understand what is going on. But when יראת שמים is non-existant, then everything is OK, such as making assumptions, accusations, etc.

Or in other words, it's a matter of certain things being אפגעפרעגט.

I can appreciate the fact that the style and talk, which is easily understood by people who have attended more chassidic farbrengens than they can count, is totally foreign to you (and others), and indeed sounds אפגעפרעגט.

But anyone who doesn't find it אפגעפרעגט to even suspect that people who are actively spreading לימוד התורה וקיום מצוות and such is done out of אהבת־ישראל to any Yid, of the type of accusations and assertions that have been raised, is simply lacking in their אהבת השם ויראת השם.

ETA: I am mostly surprised at YOU of all people, given that IIRC you have had שימוש and have acted as a מורה הוראה. CMIIW, but part of how one addresses a שאלה is related to how it is asked.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 10:36:38 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #118 on: July 10, 2019, 10:46:58 AM »
No. I think we have decent reading comprehension. While I can only speak for myself, I can still read @Yehuda57's post and see there that he and I are saying the same thing, even if not explicitly spelled out ברחל בתך הקטנה.

The issue is:

Or in other words, it's a matter of certain things being אפגעפרעגט.

I can appreciate the fact that the style and talk, which is easily understood by people who have attended more chassidic farbrengens than they can count, is totally foreign to you (and others), and indeed sounds אפגעפרעגט.

But anyone who doesn't find it אפגעפרעגט to even suspect that people who are actively spreading לימוד התורה וקיום מצוות and such is done out of אהבת־ישראל to any Yid, of the type of accusations and assertions that have been raised, is simply lacking in their אהבת השם ויראת השם.

ETA: I am mostly surprised at YOU of all people, given that IIRC you have had שימוש and have acted as a מורה הוראה. CMIIW, but part of how one addresses a שאלה is related to how it is asked.

I think that it may be beneficial for you to review exactly what I have posted in this thread with their nuances from the beginning and compare that with what some have assumed my opinion here has been. Also, don't leave the very real existence of confirmation bias out of the equation. Indignation will not solve that but dialogue may.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #119 on: July 10, 2019, 12:01:12 PM »
Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines? I haven't picked one up since high school.
Derher is a good magazine to start with.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.