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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then that’s not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasn’t ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid … then we can stop putting on t’fillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "It’s easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? It’s like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 9430 times)

Offline doodle

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2019, 05:04:11 PM »
I don’t need a Rebbe, because I have Moshe Rabbeinu. The ispashtusa of Moshe in every generation is in a physical body, otherwise, they lied to us. R’ Yoel Kahn said that if the Rebbe, G-d forbid (died)… then we can stop putting on t’fillin, chalila …”
From an intellectually  honest point of view, we need to entertain the possibility that
“They lied to us”
Otherwise you are having only half the conversation
Salt Is Good

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2019, 07:23:35 PM »
The above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article.
Why do you think this isn't relevant to צמצום לאו כפשוטו. While this is not the proper forum or format to delve into it, and there are plenty who are much better versed than I am. Or that can explain things better than myself, I will attempt to do so on a very simplistic level (without actually trying to explain what the Rebbe is). Once we understand that צמצום לאו כפשוטו, and we understand that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it). And since a Rebbe is in complete ביטול to his creator, his existence reveals the creator rather than conceal it, and as a result



90% of those reading this probably don’t know the meaning of ein sof, tzimtzum kipshuto, and dilo kipshuto, but if they asked their mashpi’im, Rabbanim, and manhigim, they would be told that the contention of the article-  “ it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical body“ and therefore the Rebbe is still necessarily here in a physical body- is big time kefira every bit as much a believing in the Eucharist- that the bread and wine is actually yoshkes body....

I have no idea whatsoever about christian beliefs, and find it unfortunate that people might be better versed in those than in Jewish beliefs and traditions.

And again, your contention that something is "big time kefira" without presenting an argument or sources to that, doesn't make you sound very credible.

As for Rabbi Posner, and the article, let's first pay attention to the article headline:

Quote
CHABADNIKIM KNOW EVERYTHING. THEY HAVE AN EXPLANATION FOR EVERYTHING. I DON’T.

And in the paragraph just before the one you quote, he says:
Quote
Or, 3 Tammuz was not like 10 Shevat, 2 Nissan, and 13 Tishrei, and then, we have a problem. 3 Tammuz is the personal problem of every one of us. I don’t know and I don’t understand, but it’s not the Rebbe’s problem! The Rebbe has no problem. I have a problem with the situation, I don’t know what happened, I don’t know exactly how to explain it, because I never experienced anything like this before.

I agree (and I'm pretty certain that Rabbi Posner would agree) with @doodle that

From an intellectually  honest point of view, we need to entertain the possibility that
“They lied to us”
Otherwise you are having only half the conversation

And while a chosid will entertain that "possibility" only in one way - as an "impossibility" (given the quote I posted above בכתי"ק), this fact has managed to penetrate even in גדרי העולם, where judge Sifton declared it to be an impossibility, EVEN WHEN HE HAS NO EXPLANATION FOR THE FACTS.

Quote
So what is a Rebbe and how can we explain what happens with him? I cannot explain what a Rebbe is because a Rebbe is not a tzaddik, kadosh and tahor, although those are lofty things. But a Rebbe, if I could explain it, well then that’s not a Rebbe.

There is plenty to criticize my dear Uncle for,

Go ahead, spill the beans, tell us all your criticism. I'm sure you know that your dear uncle isn't afraid of any criticism.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2019, 07:36:17 PM »

Go ahead, spill the beans, tell us all your criticism.

Let's start with the fact that he did an interview with the Beis Moshiach magazine...

I'm sure you know that your dear uncle isn't afraid of any criticism.

Indeed

Offline Menachem613

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2019, 08:03:37 PM »
Why do people use the term Kefirah so loosely. Even  beliefs that are incorrect or forbidden are not always Kefirah.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2019, 08:21:42 PM »
Let's start with the fact that he did an interview with the Beis Moshiach magazine...
::)

Toeing the party line with that criticism.

Let me respond to that with a quote from your dear uncle: אלו ואלו בצפצוף מצפצפים.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 08:28:14 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2019, 09:03:15 PM »
Why do people use the term Kefirah so loosely. Even  beliefs that are incorrect or forbidden are not always Kefirah.

The term is often loosely used where people really mean דעות כוזבות and the like. However,  when it comes the idea that the Rebbe may be in some corporeal form as Moshiach waiting to reveal himself,  those who adhere to the belief are convinced that it is the only true path while those who are opposed to the movement are for the most part claiming that it is indeed no less than kefira/shituf.

Offline Boruch999

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2019, 01:56:23 AM »
Why do people use the term Kefirah so loosely. Even  beliefs that are incorrect or forbidden are not always Kefirah.

He writes "“Atzmus Ein Sof enclothed itself in a physical body and speaks Yiddish, English and Russian in order to be mekarev Jews to Judaism …” presumably about the Rebbe when he was still alive.

The Rambam considers belief in Hashem's Oneness an ikar and one who denies it a kofer b'ikar.  He also says that Hashem is ein sof and that saying that anything else is ein sof is incompatible with Hashem's Oneness.  See Yesodei Hatorah perek 1 and 2.

 

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2019, 07:27:29 AM »
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?

Offline Menachem613

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2019, 07:57:31 AM »
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?

Why is a new leader necessary? Things are running as planned. 

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2019, 08:11:17 AM »
Why is a new leader necessary? Things are running as planned.
Sounds like everyone here is saying there's an issue not having a living rebbe. Besides, it's very hard to believe that things run as smoothly with a manhig as without.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2019, 08:15:52 AM »
Sounds like everyone here is saying there's an issue not having a living rebbe. Besides, it's very hard to believe that things run as smoothly with a manhig as without.

I think the Rebbe planned things very well so that the org can run even better in the future. I don’t know the stats, but I would imagine Chabad is even stronger these days by any metric. 

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2019, 11:27:40 AM »
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?

Being that a Rebbe is not appointed, but born, your question needs to be directed to ה'.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2019, 11:31:28 AM »
He writes "“Atzmus Ein Sof enclothed itself in a physical body and speaks Yiddish, English and Russian in order to be mekarev Jews to Judaism …” presumably about the Rebbe when he was still alive.

The Rambam considers belief in Hashem's Oneness an ikar and one who denies it a kofer b'ikar.  He also says that Hashem is ein sof and that saying that anything else is ein sof is incompatible with Hashem's Oneness.  See Yesodei Hatorah perek 1 and 2.

If you had even a passing understanding of achdus hashem as explained by Chassidus or Kabbalah you would realize that your second paragraph proves the first.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2019, 12:46:50 PM »
Being that a Rebbe is not appointed, but born, your question needs to be directed to ה'.
I don't understand any part of this sentence. Please explain for the non-chassidim in the audience.

Offline whYME

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2019, 01:00:48 PM »
I don't understand ... Please explain for the non-chassidim
I think that pretty much sums up this whole "discussion"