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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then that’s not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasn’t ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid … then we can stop putting on t’fillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "It’s easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? It’s like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 13834 times)

Online EliJelly

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #210 on: July 11, 2019, 11:44:42 PM »
Hopefully things have changed in the past 25 years. But we had that exact mussar shmooze in 7th grade and I found it off-putting enough to beg to go away from home and try another path.

Rafi comes home with stuff from his rebbes teachings that bother me deeply, including views on gentiles that clearly affects how the kids act towards their afternoon English teacher. When I try to correct some stuff he asked why his Rebbe tell him sheker. Not fun :(
The rabbes definitely need to do a better job in educating our kids to act respectful to all people including gentiles, while still teaching them to look down on the goy and their low lifestyle, which is crucial for our kids to be proud to behave and to be part of the "עם הנבחר".

Thousand apologies for you Dan, but in all honesty I believe that glorifying a goyish sports champion and yearning to get his autograph for your little boy isn't ideal for that matter. Feel free to discuss with your LOR of course.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #211 on: July 11, 2019, 11:47:56 PM »
This has officially become the "this is my hashkafa and everyone else is wrong" thread

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #212 on: July 12, 2019, 12:07:06 AM »
Chabad beliefs?
Like Ahavas yisroel, no matter what the yid looks like or practices?
Serving hashem not out of reward or punishment but as someone you want to be connected to?
Doing mitzvos with joy to make this world a dwelling place for hashem, which is how we can prepare for Moshiach?
Learning chassidus to know how to be closer to hashem and to fulfill what Moshiach promised the besht?
Traveling while trying to uplift the sparks in that place and realizing that there's a reason you're there?
Imbuing the mundane and our work with bechol derachecha dayayhu?

Yes, those all spoke to me more than the speakers HAC would bring in telling us how we were going straight to hell for all of our sins, so we better shape up ASAP :)
To you question - chabbad beliefs?

Yes, the things you listed are just fine. But those are not the beliefs that others will say are problematic.

You all know what I'm talking about. - Let's just say that the whole entire fundamental relationship to and with the creator that Rafi is learning in school, is radically different then the way exgingi lives and worships.  He is being taught that there is one gd that has a personal relationship with every Jew. - There is no memutza, azmus, all seeing and powerful watching rebbeh in the mix etc. Etc.

This is so very fundamental it's suprising that you seem to be so oblivious..

I know for a fact that some people just won't disclose their true belief here anyway, but I thought you were actually not playing that game... Now I don't know.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #213 on: July 12, 2019, 12:15:52 AM »
Illustration:

Chabad chinuch: Teacher to students: " let's all daven and do mitzvos and make the Rebbeh proud".

Standard chinuch: Teacher to students: "let's all daven and do mitzvos to make HASHEM proud".

This I have seen and heard with my own ears more than once at regular chabad mosdos.

The difference in the chinuch is just so fundamentally striking to me.. I don't even understand how a chabad kid can grow up with such mixed messages.

If the Rebbeh is the most important thing in the world at home, how can't he be worshiped at school?

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #214 on: July 12, 2019, 01:54:01 AM »
No. It's a general hashkafa that is too focused on schar and onesh while losing focus on the bigger picture. That was merely what broke the camel's back.
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #215 on: July 12, 2019, 08:45:01 AM »
The rabbes definitely need to do a better job in educating our kids to act respectful to all people including gentiles, while still teaching them to look down on the goy and their low lifestyle, which is crucial for our kids to be proud to behave and to be part of the "עם הנבחר".
There is no way to instruct people to look down on someone while retaining respect for them. The situation got pretty out of hand in his class and I don't think it's fair to the kids to be taught that.

Why can't we praise our lifestytle without shaming anyone else?
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #216 on: July 12, 2019, 08:46:22 AM »
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
I guess that's why it's a top yeshiva.
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #217 on: July 12, 2019, 08:47:29 AM »
To you question - chabbad beliefs?

Yes, the things you listed are just fine. But those are not the beliefs that others will say are problematic.

You all know what I'm talking about. - Let's just say that the whole entire fundamental relationship to and with the creator that Rafi is learning in school, is radically different then the way exgingi lives and worships.  He is being taught that there is one gd that has a personal relationship with every Jew. - There is no memutza, azmus, all seeing and powerful watching rebbeh in the mix etc. Etc.

This is so very fundamental it's suprising that you seem to be so oblivious..

I know for a fact that some people just won't disclose their true belief here anyway, but I thought you were actually not playing that game... Now I don't know.
Once again, you're mixing up the 99% with the 1%. But OK.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #218 on: July 12, 2019, 08:58:40 AM »
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
+1
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #219 on: July 12, 2019, 09:01:06 AM »
+1

Out of curiosity, has this changed over the past 50 years? I was there 22-30 years ago and things change in CLE a lot slower than they do on the coasts.
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #220 on: July 12, 2019, 09:05:38 AM »
Out of curiosity, has this changed over the past 50 years? I was there 22-30 years ago and things change in CLE a lot slower than they do on the coasts.
I'd think so. All the old European Rabeim have gone to retirement and left more American ones in their place.
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #221 on: July 12, 2019, 09:06:23 AM »
I'd think so. All the old European Rabeim have gone to retirement and left more American ones in their place.
That could explain a lot. Glad to hear things are changing.
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #222 on: July 12, 2019, 09:08:10 AM »
Hopefully things have changed in the past 25 years. But we had that exact mussar shmooze in 7th grade and I found it off-putting enough to beg to go away from home and try another path.

Rafi comes home with stuff from his rebbes teachings that bother me deeply, including views on gentiles that clearly affects how the kids act towards their afternoon English teacher. When I try to correct some stuff he asked why his Rebbe tell him sheker. Not fun :(

I would tread VERY carefully there. The parent/school dynamic is a very difficult balancing act. A parent regularly  negating things that the kid hears is in school can have negative repercussions since a kid has to be bought in to his her school/teacher to a degree; otherwise they feel free to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Of course as a parent one has to guide his kids but much of that is absorbed by the child observing the parents actions and attitudes which speak even louder than words.
I’ve had kids come home with statements like “moshiach was about to come after the war but the ציונים drove him away when they waged the war of independence.” Or “goyim are....”. “Bale batim are...” Kiddush Hashem isn’t when Yidden act in a way that the goyim look up to them. It’s when they do what has to be done even if it means fighting in public.”״ Holding open the door for the person behind you is a שטות that the goyim invented called etiquette and there’s no reason for a Jew to do it especially for a woman.״ etc.

I try to find a way to not completely negate such things to my kids while explaining that there are many different approaches in yiddishkeit and each has נקודות that are valid and can be learned from. And I will never make light of a חומרא the girls pick up in school such as how to do the eggs on Shabbos or cutting their hair short etc. as long as it does not risk being an unhealthy obsession. One of the schools I sent to has as a parent and student body that is very into the finer things in life, which I am not, but I am careful never to put it down to my child because I know that is part of sending to that school, and there were many other factors that made that school the right choice for that particular child. Of course everyone has to have their red lines, but before choosing a school I made sure as much as possible that I would be able to make my peace with it without causing conflict for my child. Otherwise I would have been forced to choose a different option.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #223 on: July 12, 2019, 09:08:33 AM »
Why can't we praise our lifestytle without shaming anyone else?
Because humans are flawed?
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #224 on: July 12, 2019, 09:13:06 AM »
Rafi comes home with stuff from his rebbes teachings that bother me deeply, including views on gentiles that clearly affects how the kids act towards their afternoon English teacher. When I try to correct some stuff he asked why his Rebbe tell him sheker. Not fun :(
I would tread VERY carefully there. The parent/school dynamic is a very difficult balancing act. A parent regularly  negating things that the kid hears is in school can have negative repercussions since a kid has to be bought in to his her school/teacher to a degree; otherwise they feel free to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Curious to hear how @sky121 dealt with this dilemma.
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