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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 11935 times)

Offline grodnoking

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #225 on: July 12, 2019, 09:13:43 AM »
That could explain a lot. Glad to hear things are changing.
I remember as a little kid in 1st to 5th grade I had chassidish rabbeim (who grew up in a very sheltered environment) in a litvish school but they phased them out when they realized that the just didn't get the new generation.
It's just that the new generation is exposed to the whole wide world and telling them they will rot in hell wont help them see why they cant be like yenem. You have to explain both sides of the story and the ask "why in the world would you want what they have?"
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #226 on: July 12, 2019, 09:15:51 AM »
I remember as a little kid in 1st to 5th grade I had chassidish rabbeim (who grew up in a very sheltered environment) in a litvish school but they phased them out when they realized that the just didn't get the new generation.
It's just that the new generation is exposed to the whole wide world and telling them they will rot in hell wont help them see why they cant be like yenem. You have to explain both sides of the story and the ask "why in the world would you want what they have?"
Happy to hear I'm not crazy.
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Offline chbochur

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #227 on: July 12, 2019, 09:59:45 AM »
Illustration:

Chabad chinuch: Teacher to students: " let's all daven and do mitzvos and make the Rebbeh proud".

Standard chinuch: Teacher to students: "let's all daven and do mitzvos to make HASHEM proud".

This I have seen and heard with my own ears more than once at regular chabad mosdos.

The difference in the chinuch is just so fundamentally striking to me.. I don't even understand how a chabad kid can grow up with such mixed messages.

If the Rebbeh is the most important thing in the world at home, how can't he be worshiped at school?
Reminds me of this video
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_WSU737WJ1fbkxCLW5KMWhxaGM/view?usp=drivesdk
(Start at 1:40)

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #228 on: July 12, 2019, 10:11:44 AM »
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
+100000000000000000000......

I can't recall that I have ever once heard a schmooz focused on schar v'onesh between mesivta, bais medrash, yeshiva in EY, BMG etc. One of my rabbeim zt"l has his shmoozin published in a sefer and I don't think even one is about that. The primary focus of any schar v'onesh was how the closeness to Hashem or c"v the opposite was in itself the actual schar and onesh like the mesilas yeshorim.

I had a lubavitcher boy in a younger grade in mesivta with me in a letvishe yeshiva. He was very open about it with 770 embroidered into his tfilin bags. He may have gotten flack from other boys which was mostly regular boys teasing but I had never even once seen anything from rabbeim.
Out of curiosity, has this changed over the past 50 years? I was there 22-30 years ago and things change in CLE a lot slower than they do on the coasts.
+1I guess this need to go in the pros and cons thread. You need to move to Lakewood.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #229 on: July 12, 2019, 10:17:10 AM »
Reminds me of this video
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_WSU737WJ1fbkxCLW5KMWhxaGM/view?usp=drivesdk
(Start at 1:40)
LOL.
But on the other hand it's not too far fetched of a thing to say. I mean why do people get brochos today? for the same reason.
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Offline sky121

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #230 on: July 12, 2019, 10:23:08 AM »
Curious to hear how @sky121 dealt with this dilemma.



Trying to figure out why my thoughts would be specifically requested :)

  Meanwhile.. it's hard to put all my thoughts on this topic down because it really is a problem that comes not only from the schools but from the parents and our community as well. And it stems from so many different areas of our lives.


But just to throw some thoughts out on all this...



 I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.



This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.




The rabbes definitely need to do a better job in educating our kids to act respectful to all people including gentiles, while still teaching them to look down on the goy and their low lifestyle, which is crucial for our kids to be proud to behave and to be part of the "עם הנבחר".

Thousand apologies for you Dan, but in all honesty I believe that glorifying a goyish sports champion and yearning to get his autograph for your little boy isn't ideal for that matter. Feel free to discuss with your LOR of course.

 :o
This is why I can't even respond to these posts half the time.
Why do we have to look down on "the goy?" 
And why are we generalizing that all non Jews are living a low lifestyle??
If that's what it takes for kids to be proud and behave.. I'm pretty sure we're doing something wrong.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Yehuda57

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Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #232 on: July 12, 2019, 10:30:02 AM »

Trying to figure out why my thoughts would be specifically requested :)

Because of:

Meanwhile.. it's hard to put all my thoughts on this topic down because it really is a problem that comes not only from the schools but from the parents and our community as well. And it stems from so many different areas of our lives.

But just to throw some thoughts out on all this...

I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.

This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.

:o
This is why I can't even respond to these posts half the time.
Why do we have to look down on "the goy?" 
And why are we generalizing that all non Jews are living a low lifestyle??
If that's what it takes for kids to be proud and behave.. I'm pretty sure we're doing something wrong.
Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Offline sky121

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #233 on: July 12, 2019, 10:30:33 AM »
It's ok to talk to your kids. It's ok to make them think.
 It's ok to counter a "goyim are bad" statement with...  Is the man who gave you a sticker at Trader Joes bad?
Is Doctor so and so bad?
Is the mailman we say hi to everyday.. is he a bad person?

It's ok to get into these discussions and have them start thinking. Even with your 4 year old. And your 8 year old and 12 year old and 16 year old.

It's ok to ask questions.
"Why is he bad?"
Why are "Goyim" bad?


You (hopefully) want your kids to know there are good Non-Jews in the world.
You want your kids to judge people on their actions, not their religion.
Honestly, kids should know there are "good" non Jews just as much as they should know there are "bad" Jews.


The problem when I write this is knowing that many people on the forums don't even believe that themselves.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #234 on: July 12, 2019, 10:31:05 AM »


Trying to figure out why my thoughts would be specifically requested :)

  Meanwhile.. it's hard to put all my thoughts on this topic down because it really is a problem that comes not only from the schools but from the parents and our community as well. And it stems from so many different areas of our lives.


But just to throw some thoughts out on all this...



 I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.



This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.




 :o
This is why I can't even respond to these posts half the time.
Why do we have to look down on "the goy?" 
And why are we generalizing that all non Jews are living a low lifestyle??
If that's what it takes for kids to be proud and behave.. I'm pretty sure we're doing something wrong.
Because I know that you and I see alike on the gentile issue hashkafikly and I was wondering how you dealt with that :)
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Offline sky121

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #235 on: July 12, 2019, 10:32:03 AM »
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #236 on: July 12, 2019, 10:34:03 AM »
It's ok to talk to your kids. It's ok to make them think.
 It's ok to counter a "goyim are bad" statement with...  Is the man who gave you a sticker at Trader Joes bad?
Is Doctor so and so bad?
Is the mailman we say hi to everyday.. is he a bad person?

It's ok to get into these discussions and have them start thinking. Even with your 4 year old. And your 8 year old and 12 year old and 16 year old.

It's ok to ask questions.
"Why is he bad?"
Why are "Goyim" bad?


You (hopefully) want your kids to know there are good Non-Jews in the world.
You want your kids to judge people on their actions, not their religion.
Honestly, kids should know there are "good" non Jews just as much as they should know there are "bad" Jews.


The problem when I write this is knowing that many people on the forums don't even believe that themselves.
I grew up also being taught in HAC that goyim are inherently bad and it bothers me that this is still taught.

I enjoyed that in Chabad yeshivas we were instead taught to talk to gentiles and let them know about the 7 Noahide mitzvas that they need to know about to make the world a better place.
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #237 on: July 12, 2019, 10:34:11 AM »
+100000000000000000000......

I can't recall that I have ever once heard a schmooz focused on schar v'onesh between mesivta, bais medrash, yeshiva in EY, BMG etc. One of my rabbeim zt"l has his shmoozin published in a sefer and I don't think even one is about that. The primary focus of any schar v'onesh was how the closeness to Hashem or c"v the opposite was in itself the actual schar and onesh like the mesilas yeshorim.

I had a lubavitcher boy in a younger grade in mesivta with me in a letvishe yeshiva. He was very open about it with 770 embroidered into his tfilin bags. He may have gotten flack from other boys which was mostly regular boys teasing but I had never even once seen anything from rabbeim.

There definitely is some focus on עומק הדין etc. (open up a מתנת חיים on תומר דבורה etc.)but that is geared toward those who are much more advanced and not toward your younger mesivta bochur .

Online CountValentine

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #238 on: July 12, 2019, 10:35:03 AM »
The rabbes definitely need to do a better job in educating our kids to act respectful to all people including gentiles, while still teaching them to look down on the goy and their low lifestyle, which is crucial for our kids to be proud to behave and to be part of the "עם הנבחר".
Is all the scams Jews perpetrate on other Jews in the Jewish community the low lifestyle you are talking about?
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Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #239 on: July 12, 2019, 10:37:16 AM »
Is all the scams Jews perpetrate on other Jews in the Jewish community the low lifestyle you are talking about?
That's the flipside of stressing that we are special. I certainly trusted too many Jews over the years to do the right thing because they were Jewish. But you live and learn.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.