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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then that’s not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasn’t ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid … then we can stop putting on t’fillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "It’s easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? It’s like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 11882 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #240 on: July 12, 2019, 10:50:56 AM »
There definitely is some focus on עומק הדין etc. (open up a מתנת חיים on תומר דבורה etc.)but that is geared toward those who are much more advanced and not toward your younger mesivta bochur .
Of course it is discussed and learned. Schar v'onesh is one of the ikarim. That wasn't the foundation of why to do mitzvos  etc. though. Not sure why some seem to want to pick and choose between their ikarim.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #241 on: July 12, 2019, 11:00:00 AM »
That wasn't the foundation of why to do mitzvos

It certainly was constantly stressed as a foundation with many of my Rebbeim in HAC.

Also stressed by alternate universe skinny litvak Dan ;)
https://youtu.be/mDGislwQG38?t=111
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #242 on: July 12, 2019, 11:09:59 AM »
It certainly was constantly stressed as a foundation with many of my Rebbeim in HAC.

Also stressed by alternate universe skinny litvak Dan ;)
https://youtu.be/mDGislwQG38?t=111

I thought the schar was gonna be this skinny litvak Dan

Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #243 on: July 12, 2019, 11:41:46 AM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline flyingace

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #244 on: July 12, 2019, 12:18:34 PM »
I think regarding children and their attitude towards non-Jews it's important to remember that kids' thinking is very black and white. So, if they learn in school about a bad non-Jew, it's going to translate to non-Jews are bad, even if the teacher never said non-Jews are bad.

It takes maturity and understanding to integrate opposing views of the same issue and kids don't have that. They have to learn that individuals need to be treated respectfully regardless of their status, even while realizing that the non-Jewish way of life is not correct for us to follow.

Also, Biblically and historically(in Europe for sure) non-Jews have been the perpetrators of great harm to the Jewish people and that collective memory runs very deep.




Offline Dr Moose

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #245 on: July 12, 2019, 12:22:50 PM »
Only have reading through this read did the realization hit me: Lubabitch are the original hipsters. Love and peace and drink to be merry.
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Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #246 on: July 12, 2019, 12:23:50 PM »
Only have reading through this read did the realization hit me: Lubabitch are the original hipsters. Love and peace and drink to be merry.
*Drink to come to introspection and better yourself.
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #247 on: July 12, 2019, 12:30:38 PM »
There is no way to instruct people to look down on someone while retaining respect for them. The situation got pretty out of hand in his class and I don't think it's fair to the kids to be taught that.

Why can't we praise our lifestytle without shaming anyone else?
I'm fine with your lenient lovely approach, but I didn't express my personal feelings at all, just what is written in every Yiddish Sefer. I won't  bombard you here with quotes of them, I'll just refer you to the famous piece in  " אור החיים הק׳ פרשת פנחס על הפסוק צרור את המדינים".

Offline Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #248 on: July 12, 2019, 12:54:34 PM »
It's ok to talk to your kids. It's ok to make them think.
 It's ok to counter a "goyim are bad" statement with...  Is the man who gave you a sticker at Trader Joes bad?
Is Doctor so and so bad?
Is the mailman we say hi to everyday.. is he a bad person?

It's ok to get into these discussions and have them start thinking. Even with your 4 year old. And your 8 year old and 12 year old and 16 year old.

It's ok to ask questions.
"Why is he bad?"
Why are "Goyim" bad?


You (hopefully) want your kids to know there are good Non-Jews in the world.
You want your kids to judge people on their actions, not their religion.
Honestly, kids should know there are "good" non Jews just as much as they should know there are "bad" Jews.


The problem when I write this is knowing that many people on the forums don't even believe that themselves.

I think the issue is far from black and white. In a general sense you’re absolutely correct. You want people to judge other people based on their actions, not their religion. There are very many good goyim out there, and I have nothing but the greatest respect for them, but the fact remains that their goals, aspirations, and values are far apart from ours. There are many areas that would be considered moral and good by many goyim that to us are a moral evil. Just to take the example of euthanasia, it’s hard to be nuanced and convey to a kid that killing a teenage girl in the Netherlands because she wanted to die is an evil act but the people who did it are good and kind people. There are a host of other social and moral issues where the same tension would play out. The fact that the majority of western civilization considers man to be a biological creature like any other animal that roams the planet is not just a theoretical exercise. It has practical  impacts in so many moral and social constructs that it cannot be disregarded, leaving religion out of the picture.  That does not mean that the goy is bad and the Jew is automatically good. The goy may be kinder, more refined, and more honest than the Jew I just did a deal with but the two are not on the same level. Of course the non-Jews honesty and kindness is cause for me to relate to him in reciprocal fashion, which I may not do in the case of a Jew who is dishonest. But that is not the entire picture.

I am מחויב to relate to one as אחיך with all the attendant obligations but not to the “better” goy. Perhaps this is what is meant to be conveyed but is given over in an unnuanced and therefore grossly distorted way.

One additional point.Perhaps it was just my experience but from what I saw there is also another issue with kids having a hard time drawing the line between respecting a goy for who he is and respecting his opinions. For example, when my son and his friends were at an age where they tend to  idolize football players, they not only appreciated the talents of the particular player, they actually gave weight to his opinions, for example giving some credence to the ideas behind “taking the knee” because their hero did it. Other questionable or objectionable ideas espoused by political figures, sports stars, etc. were also giving credence by the boys simply because of who espoused them. Aside from the very real issue of לא תחנם which is not that easy to get around, these other potential pitfalls may be motivating mechanchim to go to the extreme. I still don’t think it’s justifiable, and at some  point you have to give the kids a honest, nuanced, picture that doesn’t label goyim vs Jews as bad vs good because you are doing a disservice to the many honest good goyim out there as well as hindering the kids ability to function in society.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 01:00:22 PM by Yard sale »

Offline gingyguy

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #249 on: July 12, 2019, 01:06:16 PM »
*Drink to come to introspection and better yourself.
as long as your drinking who cares why . Lchaim!
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #250 on: July 12, 2019, 01:19:02 PM »



 I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.



This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.

There definitely is room for respectful disagreement but if it gets to the point where the kid is calling the teacher a liar etc. then it is time to re-calibrate the message.

In regards to chumrahs that kids bring home from school, my kids know I have gone through the relevant halachos and can pasken on my own so when they come home with something they were told I don’t find it threatening.  I can tell them that there certainly are those who hold that way and if they would like to use a shinui when doing the eggs to accomodate those shittos that is great. They know there are other opinions that don’t require it and they will soon know so that I can listen to other opinions without feeling threatened which is a valuable lesson on its own. And every so often something comes up that I may have learned 10 years ago and seeing now that there is a point in doing things slightly different and in that instance I’ll adopt it and thank my kid for it.

I also know that I am not perfect so if my kid comes home and says based on what they learned in school they would prefer not to take a trip to Six Flags, or Manhattan, etc. I tell them I respect them for it. It doesn’t mean the family wont go but they have the leeway to take what they are learning to a practical level and have their parents respect for doing so. I can think of several of my friends who came from more modern backgrounds and it was their parents respect for them and pride in their growth in areas that the parents were not holding in that allowed them to become really successful later on in life, so I always try to keep that in mind with my own kids.

Offline cmey

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #251 on: July 12, 2019, 06:00:50 PM »
I think the issue is far from black and white. In a general sense you’re absolutely correct. You want people to judge other people based on their actions, not their religion. There are very many good goyim out there, and I have nothing but the greatest respect for them, but the fact remains that their goals, aspirations, and values are far apart from ours. There are many areas that would be considered moral and good by many goyim that to us are a moral evil. Just to take the example of euthanasia, it’s hard to be nuanced and convey to a kid that killing a teenage girl in the Netherlands because she wanted to die is an evil act but the people who did it are good and kind people. There are a host of other social and moral issues where the same tension would play out. The fact that the majority of western civilization considers man to be a biological creature like any other animal that roams the planet is not just a theoretical exercise. It has practical  impacts in so many moral and social constructs that it cannot be disregarded, leaving religion out of the picture.  That does not mean that the goy is bad and the Jew is automatically good. The goy may be kinder, more refined, and more honest than the Jew I just did a deal with but the two are not on the same level. Of course the non-Jews honesty and kindness is cause for me to relate to him in reciprocal fashion, which I may not do in the case of a Jew who is dishonest. But that is not the entire picture.

I am מחויב to relate to one as אחיך with all the attendant obligations but not to the “better” goy. Perhaps this is what is meant to be conveyed but is given over in an unnuanced and therefore grossly distorted way.

One additional point.Perhaps it was just my experience but from what I saw there is also another issue with kids having a hard time drawing the line between respecting a goy for who he is and respecting his opinions. For example, when my son and his friends were at an age where they tend to  idolize football players, they not only appreciated the talents of the particular player, they actually gave weight to his opinions, for example giving some credence to the ideas behind “taking the knee” because their hero did it. Other questionable or objectionable ideas espoused by political figures, sports stars, etc. were also giving credence by the boys simply because of who espoused them. Aside from the very real issue of לא תחנם which is not that easy to get around, these other potential pitfalls may be motivating mechanchim to go to the extreme. I still don’t think it’s justifiable, and at some  point you have to give the kids a honest, nuanced, picture that doesn’t label goyim vs Jews as bad vs good because you are doing a disservice to the many honest good goyim out there as well as hindering the kids ability to function in society.

And with this we go into Shabbos parshas chukas where chazal darshen אדם כי ימות- אתם קרויים אדם, one of the claims that the anti semites brought in the Mendel  Beilis blood libel trial.

http://www.acheinu.co.il/?p=6603

אחת הטענות העיקריות של הכומר הקתולי היתה הטענה שהיהודים אינם מתייחסים עלה גויים כאל בני אדם. לשם כך הוא ציטט את דברי חז"ל במסכת יבמות דף סא'. "אתם קרויים אדם ואין עובדי כוכבים קרויים אדם". רק היהודים נקראים אדם, ולא הגויים, אם כן, אין זה פלא, כך טען הכומר האנטישמי, שהיהודים אינם חוששים לרצוח נער גוי לצורך פולחן דתי.
להשיב על הטענה של הכומר פראנייטיס הוזמן הרב מאיר שפירא שהיה חבר הפרלמנט הפולני, ראש ישיבת חכמי לובלין המפורסמת, וכן מחולל רעיון הדף היומי. כמו"כ הוזמן גם רבה הראשי של מוסקבה, רבי יעקב מזא"ה, להשיב על טענותיו של הכומר.

הרב מאיר שפירא הסביר את דברי התלמוד כך: "בלשון הקודש ישנם ארבע מילים נרדפות שמתארות יצור אנושי: "אנוש", "גבר", "איש" ו"אדם".
שלושת השמות הראשונים ניתנים לקריאה הן בלשון יחיד והן בלשון רבים, הסביר רבי מאיר שפירא. אנוש – אנשים, גבר – גברים, איש – אישים. אבל את המילה 'אדם' אי אפשר לומר בלשום רבים, אי אפשר לומר "אדמים".

"הלוא תבין כבוד השופט", טען רבי מאיר שפירא, "הגויים מוגדרים כיחידים – כל אחד לעצמו. הם יכולים להיות קבוצה של אחדים רבים, אבל העם היהודי הוא יחיד אחד גדול, העם היהודי כולו מאוחד, עם גוף אחד ונשמה אחת, ולכן התואר "אדם", מתאים רק ליהודים ולא לגויים".

רבי מאיר שפירא גם הוכיח את דבריו: "הבט נא כבוד השופט, אני רב פולני, ורבי יעקב מאז"ה הוא רב מרוסיה, שנינו גם יחד הוזעקנו מקצווי ארץ להגיע לאוקראינה כדי לסייע ליהודי ששנינו לא מכירים בכלל ומעולם לא דיברנו עמו, ושנינו לא חשבנו רגע אלא מיהרנו להגיע כדי לסייע לו. האין זאת הוכחה ברורה לטענת חכמנו זכרונם לברכה שהעם היהודי הוא אדם אחד?!".

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #252 on: July 12, 2019, 06:03:55 PM »
Wasn't R' Meir Shapiro. Regardless, it's just one pshat...
You do see from the story to use some sense about when and where you want certain things brought up.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #253 on: July 12, 2019, 06:08:41 PM »
I grew up also being taught in HAC that goyim are inherently bad and it bothers me that this is still taught.

I enjoyed that in Chabad yeshivas we were instead taught to talk to gentiles and let them know about the 7 Noahide mitzvas that they need to know about to make the world a better place.
So you were taught they are inherently good?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #254 on: July 12, 2019, 06:13:59 PM »
I went to a litvishe yeshiva that is considered one of the top yeshivos. I don't remember a single shmooze where schar and onesh was the main point. Neither was the general hashkafa in any way focused on that. It was more of, what's a persons tafkid in life and doing ratzon hashem.
Personally I think onesh is not discussed anywhere near enough.

Reshis chochmas Shar hagehenom is a must read every once in a while

These days it's almost taboo. Absurd.