Topic Wiki

ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 11972 times)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54147
  • Total likes: 2623
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #255 on: July 12, 2019, 06:27:39 PM »
So you were taught they are inherently good?
Taught that everything Hashem creates is for an inherent reason and purpose.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline cmey

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 181
  • Total likes: 88
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: lakewood
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #256 on: July 12, 2019, 07:29:44 PM »
Wasn't R' Meir Shapiro. Regardless, it's just one pshat...
You do see from the story to use some sense about when and where you want certain things brought up.

Some versions have a young Rav Meir Shapiro sending a letter to the Rav anticipating the question and providing the above answer which probably makes more sense but I quoted the above for the idea regardless of who came up with it.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7185
  • Total likes: 272
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #257 on: July 12, 2019, 07:39:44 PM »
Taught that everything Hashem creates is for an inherent reason and purpose.

Offline th0306

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Sep 2015
  • Posts: 68
  • Total likes: 16
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #258 on: July 13, 2019, 11:41:51 PM »
I grew up also being taught in HAC that goyim are inherently bad and it bothers me that this is still taught.

I enjoyed that in Chabad yeshivas we were instead taught to talk to gentiles and let them know about the 7 Noahide mitzvas that they need to know about to make the world a better place.
Why are these a contradiction?

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54147
  • Total likes: 2623
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #259 on: July 13, 2019, 11:54:03 PM »
Why are these a contradiction?
1st of all, teaching a kid that a goy is bad just means they feel that they can disrespect their non-Jewish teachers. And those non-Jewish teachers then complain to the parents that the kids say they don't need to respect them because they aren't Jewish and they wonder where that comes from. It's not fair to the kids, it's not fair to the teachers, it's not fair to the parents, and it's just an overall C"H IMHO. There are better ways to make our kids proud to be Jewish.

2nd of all, a nefesh habehamis comes from klipas noga, which isn't inherently good or bad. I don't want to correct what a rebbi teaches my child, but I will if I have to.



Trying to figure out why my thoughts would be specifically requested :)

  Meanwhile.. it's hard to put all my thoughts on this topic down because it really is a problem that comes not only from the schools but from the parents and our community as well. And it stems from so many different areas of our lives.


But just to throw some thoughts out on all this...



 I know there is that classic fear of never putting down the school where you send your kid but I do believe, especially as a child gets older that there is an appropriate way to tell your kid you disagree with a teachers thoughts or opinion in a respectful way.  Society started realizing the problems of bashing the school or teachers from parents who were doing just that- bashing, bad mouthing, saying things were stupid etc. That should obviously never be done. Having no respect for the school or teachers will quickly pass along to your kid. If a kid sees you respect their teachers and school even when voicing your opinion and disagreements they learn to also disagree with people and still respect them.   
In general kids are much smarter than we give the credit for. It's ok for them to see you disagree about things. And it's ok to say in our house we ... x ..y...z..

With the situation given above for certain chumros being taught in school for example- I think it's perfectly fine to teach a kid that came home learning "this is the right way to do it" - that it is in fact just a chumra and in your house you do X, Y and Z. 
Because in honesty you don't want your kid thinking all the chumros they learn are black and white Halacha because that too causes problems later on or more room for judging others that don't do things that way.

The fear of disagreeing or even having to outright say something is wrong is less when you have been teaching your kid derech eretz and respect all along.   

And that's really a bigger issue than all this. If you're not really preaching it at home and they are getting some negative lessons at school it's hard to even know where to start.



This is an old problem.  I think a big way this stuff didn't affect me personally growing up was my exposure to other people. Non religious family members and just the outside world and seeing how my parents treated other human beings.

But .... even with all that- I still had to work on really knowing that I wasn't "better" than anyone else just because they were not religious/not Jewish etc as an adult. It does get ingrained in you.




 :o
This is why I can't even respond to these posts half the time.
Why do we have to look down on "the goy?" 
And why are we generalizing that all non Jews are living a low lifestyle??
If that's what it takes for kids to be proud and behave.. I'm pretty sure we're doing something wrong.

Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline th0306

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Sep 2015
  • Posts: 68
  • Total likes: 16
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #260 on: July 13, 2019, 11:56:31 PM »
1st of all, teaching a kid that a goy is bad just means they feel that they can disrespect their non-Jewish teachers. And those non-Jewish teachers then complain to the parents that the kids say they don't need to respect them because they aren't Jewish and they wonder where that comes from. It's not fair to the kids, it's not fair to the teachers, it's not fair to the parents, and it's just an overall C"H IMHO. There are better ways to make our kids proud to be Jewish.

2nd of all, a nefesh habehamis comes from klipas noga, which isn't inherently good or bad. I don't want to correct what a rebbi teaches my child, but I will if I have to.
There you go.....

I think the conversation should be more about what is the truth and not whether it's practical or not....

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54147
  • Total likes: 2623
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #261 on: July 13, 2019, 11:58:51 PM »
There is no memutza, azmus
Right, because nobody else in Judaism goes to a leader to ask for brochas and advice.

Illustration:

Chabad chinuch: Teacher to students: " let's all daven and do mitzvos and make the Rebbeh proud".

Standard chinuch: Teacher to students: "let's all daven and do mitzvos to make HASHEM proud".
Next thing you know we'll want to make mommy, tatty, and Hashem be so proud of me! Mamesh avoda zara.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54147
  • Total likes: 2623
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #262 on: July 13, 2019, 11:59:39 PM »
There you go.....

I think the conversation should be more about what is the truth and not whether it's practical or not....
What does that have to do with teaching kids that goyim are bad?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 7091
  • Total likes: 1680
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #263 on: July 14, 2019, 12:43:07 AM »
Right, because nobody else in Judaism goes to a leader to ask for brochas and advice.
Next thing you know we'll want to make mommy, tatty, and Hashem be so proud of me! Mamesh avoda zara.
Of that is what you think the concept of a brocha from a tzadik is about then we truly do have very serous problems.

I am not sure what the comparison is to that song.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline th0306

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Sep 2015
  • Posts: 68
  • Total likes: 16
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #264 on: July 14, 2019, 12:44:01 AM »
What does that have to do with teaching kids that goyim are bad?
If - from a Torah perspective - goyim are bad then that's what we should be teaching our children, and if not - not.
Whether it's practical or not should not play any role....

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54147
  • Total likes: 2623
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #265 on: July 14, 2019, 12:50:20 AM »
Of that is what you think the concept of a brocha from a tzadik is about then we truly do have very serous problems.

I am not sure what the comparison is to that song.
A Rebbe is a paternal figure, someone you go to for advice and want to make proud. There's zero confusion about who runs the world and who is the tzaddik.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54147
  • Total likes: 2623
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #266 on: July 14, 2019, 12:50:45 AM »
If - from a Torah perspective - goyim are bad then that's what we should be teaching our children, and if not - not.
Whether it's practical or not should not play any role....
Klipas noga is not bad.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 54147
  • Total likes: 2623
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #267 on: July 14, 2019, 01:02:40 AM »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 7091
  • Total likes: 1680
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #268 on: July 14, 2019, 01:03:45 AM »
A Rebbe is a paternal figure, someone you go to for advice and want to make proud. There's zero confusion about who runs the world and who is the tzaddik.
Great. Time for me to pull out.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 102
  • Total likes: 33
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #269 on: July 14, 2019, 01:08:42 AM »
Kids acting Chutzpahdig to non Jewish teachers was a big problem since I remember, causing a great C"H, plus the kid's were busy having fun and did't pay attention quite enough. I think that's why here in the tri-state they basically changed to hiring Observant Jewish teachers for afternoon which basically solved the problem.

To the basic discussion why praising our lifestyle is not just enough, The word "praising" typically means praising the excellent over the good. the extraordinary over the ordinary. What we teach our kids is the right over the wrong, yet still teaching them to respect every person, Jew or gentile.

This way of educating worked and continues to works very good. My kids smile and act respectfully to the Doctor, mailman and so on, and so were all of us raised. I don't see any of the concerns raised here by some modern thinkers should happen in real life, besides in school where kids are looking to have fun anyway, and having strangers for teachers is a good recipe for that. Again, this problem has mostly been eliminated and was a great idea.