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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 11976 times)

Offline Definitions

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #270 on: July 14, 2019, 01:18:06 AM »
Klipas noga is not bad.
What about the chazakos? Hate the action not the person? Are you required to do so?

Kids acting Chutzpahdig to non Jewish teachers was a big problem since I remember, causing a great C"H, plus the kid's were busy having fun and did't pay attention quite enough. I think that's why here in the tri-state they basically changed to hiring Observant Jewish teachers for afternoon which basically solved the problem.
In my elementary all the teachers were Jewish and it didn't make the kids more respectful. In mesivta it was Jewish and non Jewish it didn't either change anything.

If the teacher was strict then there was respect and order. That was the only factor in the students behaviour.


Jack of all trades, master of none.

Offline cmey

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #271 on: July 14, 2019, 01:49:15 AM »
Personally I think onesh is not discussed anywhere near enough.

Reshis chochmas Shar hagehenom is a must read every once in a while

These days it's almost taboo. Absurd.


 

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #272 on: July 14, 2019, 07:57:47 AM »


Another version of this story;

Quote
On another occasion he addressed G‑d: ďMaster of the Universe, You have placed all the earthly temptations before our eyes, while the spiritual benefits and rewards for following Your will are relegated to the books we study. That is quite unfair! Reverse the situation. Serenade our senses with an appreciation for spirituality, and consign all material benefits and pleasures to the library shelves. See, then, how few people will sin!Ē

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #273 on: July 14, 2019, 09:26:12 AM »
1st of all, teaching a kid that a goy is bad just means they feel that they can disrespect their non-Jewish teachers. And those non-Jewish teachers then complain to the parents that the kids say they don't need to respect them because they aren't Jewish and they wonder where that comes from. It's not fair to the kids, it's not fair to the teachers, it's not fair to the parents, and it's just an overall C"H IMHO. There are better ways to make our kids proud to be Jewish.

2nd of all, a nefesh habehamis comes from klipas noga, which isn't inherently good or bad. I don't want to correct what a rebbi teaches my child, but I will if I have to.
We must teach our children that the goyish way of life and culture is bad.

Teaching kids to admire and adulate the secular culture is the very very wrong and doing them a great disservice.

You are probably confusing the above which is taught in mainstream yeshivos, with "goyim are bad and should be disrespected"

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #274 on: July 14, 2019, 09:29:16 AM »

Nice!
But that's exactly why this part of the reshis chochma should be taught in school and reviewed periodically

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #275 on: July 14, 2019, 09:35:35 AM »
We must teach our children that the goyish way of life and culture is bad.

Teaching kids to admire and adulate the secular culture is the very very wrong and doing them a great disservice.

You are probably confusing the above which is taught in mainstream yeshivos, with "goyim are bad and should be disrespected"
Nope. No confusion at all.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #276 on: July 14, 2019, 10:27:11 AM »
1st of all, teaching a kid that a goy is bad just means they feel that they can disrespect their non-Jewish teachers. And those non-Jewish teachers then complain to the parents that the kids say they don't need to respect them because they aren't Jewish and they wonder where that comes from. It's not fair to the kids, it's not fair to the teachers, it's not fair to the parents, and it's just an overall C"H IMHO. There are better ways to make our kids proud to be Jewish.
I know you understand the other side on the coin. To bad others can't understand a simple concept.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline CountValentine

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #277 on: July 14, 2019, 10:28:48 AM »
We must teach our children that the goyish way of life and culture is bad.

Teaching kids to admire and adulate the secular culture is the very very wrong and doing them a great disservice.

You are probably confusing the above which is taught in mainstream yeshivos, with "goyim are bad and should be disrespected"
Why don't you teach your kids about what you feel is right and leave others out of it?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline CountValentine

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #278 on: July 14, 2019, 10:49:28 AM »
Kind of funny that the same individuals that promote this garbage are the ones that cry about anti-Semitism. Hello anyone home?  :)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #279 on: July 14, 2019, 10:50:33 AM »
Why don't you teach your kids about what you feel is right and leave others out of it?
Exactly

Offline EliJelly

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #280 on: July 14, 2019, 03:20:49 PM »
If - from a Torah perspective - goyim are bad then that's what we should be teaching our children, and if not - not.
Whether it's practical or not should not play any role....
Klipas noga is not bad.
I wouldn't expect from a fiery Chabadnick to be so badly mistaken, As the Tanye himself posits, only nefesh habehamis from Yisrael is from klipas noga, .אבל נשמת אומות העולם המה משלש קליפות הטמאות

וזה לשונו בלקו׳׳א סוף פ׳׳א: וגם מדות טובות שבטבע כל ישראל בתולדותם כמו רחמנות וג׳׳ח באות ממנה כי בישראל נפש זו דקליפה היא מקליפת נוגה שיש בה ג׳׳כ טוב והוא מסוד עץ הדעת טוב
   ורע. "משא׳׳כ נפשות אומות עכו׳׳ם הן משאר קליפות טמאות שאין בהן טוב כלל", כמ׳׳ש בע׳׳ח שער מ׳׳ט פ׳׳ג, וכל טיבו דעבדין האומות עכו׳׳ם לגרמייהו עבדין וכדאיתא בגמ׳ ע׳׳פ וחסד לאומים
                                                                                                                                                .חטאת שכל צדקה וחסד שאומות עכו׳׳ם עושין אינן אלא להתייהר

   ובסוף פ׳׳ו ז׳׳ל: אלא שהקליפות הן נחלקות לשתי מדריגות זו למטה מזו, "המדריגה התחתונה היא שלש קליפות הטמאות ורעות לגמרי ואין בהן טוב כלל" וכו׳ ומהן נשפעות ונמשכות נפשות כל
                                                                                                                                               .אומות עכו׳׳ם ונפשות כבעלי חיים הטמאים ואסורים באכילה וכו׳
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 03:29:44 PM by EliJelly »

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #281 on: July 14, 2019, 03:29:37 PM »
Me? Fiery? LOL.
Regardless, my point still stands. The Chabad approach is not to denigrate, but to uplift everyone by showing what they can accomplish.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #282 on: July 14, 2019, 03:36:24 PM »
Me? Fiery? LOL.
Regardless, my point still stands. The Chabad approach is not to denigrate, but to uplift everyone by showing what they can accomplish.
That should be the approach for all Yiden. Not suggesting otherwise at all. But how "we" should know and view the truth, I think it's clearly given in my above quote, which you have seemingly missed.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #283 on: July 14, 2019, 03:59:25 PM »
The Chabad approach is not to denigrate, but to uplift everyone by showing what they can accomplish.

So there are obviously exceptions (the only question is what does the poster consider to be the exception, himself or the subject).

Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines?

It's an extremist fringe magazine and wouldn't be found in 99% of official Chabad Houses. Any other questions?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #284 on: July 14, 2019, 04:29:07 PM »
So there are obviously exceptions (the only question is what does the poster consider to be the exception, himself or the subject).
Or when it's against the Rebbe's clear instructions?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.