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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 9427 times)

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2019, 01:25:42 PM »
I don't understand any part of this sentence. Please explain for the non-chassidim in the audience.
+1

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2019, 02:44:56 PM »
I don't understand any part of this sentence. Please explain for the non-chassidim in the audience.

A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2019, 03:14:41 PM »
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.
Other people that were referred to as "rebbe" have also died?
Why can't people with this neshama die?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 03:19:08 PM by chinagel »

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2019, 03:29:28 PM »
Other people that were referred to as "rebbe" have also died?
Why can't people with this neshama die?

Huh? What does that have to do with I said?

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2019, 03:33:32 PM »
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.
This is, of course, based on the premise that there is no such person alive physically. How would someone know that?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2019, 03:40:27 PM »
This is, of course, based on the premise that there is no such person alive physically. How would someone know that?
Included in this question is how does one know if someone that is called a rebbe, actually is one. And if it's based on the previous rebbes say so, how was the first one identified?

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2019, 03:41:53 PM »
Huh? What does that have to do with I said?
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.
Other people that were referred to as "rebbe" have also died?
Why can't people with this neshama die?
You are asking why hashem made that this person is no longer alive. I assume you don't think he is the first or last person to have this neshama. Hence, I don't understand the question.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2019, 03:42:48 PM »
You are asking why hashem made that this person is no longer alive. I assume you don't think he is the first or last person to have this neshama. Hence, I don't understand the question.
I think he meant that when one dies, they are usually replaced

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2019, 03:46:57 PM »
I think he meant that when one dies, they are usually replaced
Many Rebbes have died and they had no successor.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2019, 03:47:48 PM »
Many Rebbes have died and they had no successor.
Ok. I was not aware.

Offline username

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2019, 04:05:36 PM »
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.
Serious questions.
According to chassidus, can there be more than one Rebbe in the world at one time, or is this neshama limited to only one person at a time?
^^^

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2019, 04:05:39 PM »
Many Rebbes have died and they had no successor.
But does that mean that no other person will ever have that type of neshoma?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2019, 04:10:07 PM »
But does that mean that no other person will ever have that type of neshoma?
You are asking why hashem made that this person is no longer alive. I assume you don't think he is the first or last person to have this neshama. Hence, I don't understand the question.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2019, 04:19:57 PM »
Serious questions.
According to chassidus, can there be more than one Rebbe in the world at one time, or is this neshama limited to only one person at a time?
Lol of course there is only one.

They also believe in achdus......... Just more like the trilogy version

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2019, 09:56:20 PM »
The term is often loosely used where people really mean דעות כוזבות and the like. However,  when it comes the idea that the Rebbe may be in some corporeal form as Moshiach waiting to reveal himself,  those who adhere to the belief are convinced that it is the only true path while those who are opposed to the movement are for the most part BASELESSLY (and probably rooted in something I'd rather not mention) claiming that it is indeed no less than kefira/shituf.
FTFY.

The Gemorah has a few stories about apparent death and burial followed (or preceded) by events or statements statements which are incongruent with such.  (יעקב אבינו לא מת, ר אלעזר ב״ר שמעון, רבינו הקדוש).
Anyone raising the kefira/shituf claim there?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 10:08:58 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan