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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 14275 times)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #330 on: December 25, 2019, 10:50:34 PM »
Needless to say, none of those criticizing Rabbi Posner's quote attempted to inquire with him and seek an explanation.

However in an interesting twist someone I trust told me that he recently saw the video described by Chaim Rapoport (and subsequently heard from another trusted individual). I hope to be able to see it myself and listed carefully to the words being said (one of those who saw it said that the Rebbe's sentence seems to be interrupted). I doubt that I will be able to obtain a copy, but if I manage to view it I will bez"h report back my impression.
dis∑in∑gen∑u∑ous
/ˌdisənˈjenyo͞oəs/

noun
A post on DDF by ExGingi.

"there's another disingenuous on Just Schmooze."
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #331 on: December 25, 2019, 11:08:39 PM »
dis∑in∑gen∑u∑ous
/ˌdisənˈjenyo͞oəs/

noun
A post on DDF by ExGingi.

"there's another disingenuous on Just Schmooze."

As long as ExGingi is disingenuous, facts don't matter.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #332 on: December 25, 2019, 11:32:06 PM »


Needless to say, none of those criticizing Rabbi Posner's quote attempted to inquire with him and seek an explanation.


Ftr, this is only referring to this specific way of seeking explanation.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #333 on: December 26, 2019, 01:07:27 AM »
Ftr, this is only referring to this specific way of seeking explanation.

Indeed.

Which was suggested to those that doubted whether explanations given upthread are what was meant by him.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chevron

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #334 on: December 31, 2019, 12:26:57 AM »
I should send this link to this thread to my brother but he will berate me for wasting his time with such shtusim.

Actually reading through such thorny, sticky, name calling and bashing thread.. I was saddened to find a lack of @CountValentine  wisdom here.. since he clearly knows everything.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 12:33:35 AM by chevron »

Offline chevron

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #335 on: December 31, 2019, 12:31:42 AM »
I dont like BM articles, regardless of content. Their style of writing annoys me. They lack fluid prose.


Online CountValentine

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #336 on: December 31, 2019, 12:36:24 AM »
Actually reading through such thorny, sticky, name calling and bashing thread.. I was saddened to find a lack of @CountValentine  wisdom here.. since he clearly knows everything.
I hope that isn't your best cheap shot.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline chevron

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #337 on: December 31, 2019, 12:42:27 AM »
I hope that isn't your best cheap shot.

Nope, I'm done engaging with you. Was genuinely supprised you didn't jump in :)

Cheers

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #338 on: December 31, 2019, 12:44:50 AM »
Nope, I'm done engaging with you. Was genuinely supprised you didn't jump in :)

Cheers
Always tag the guy you're definitely done engaging with
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #339 on: December 31, 2019, 12:46:02 AM »
Always tag the guy you're definitely done engaging with
You can't make this stuff up.  :)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline chevron

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #340 on: December 31, 2019, 12:59:11 AM »
Always tag the guy you're definitely done engaging with

Yep, especially a thread as juicy as this