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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 9466 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2019, 10:06:26 PM »
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?

I'll give you the גראב גערעדט answer: With the plurality of opinions, interpretations, etc within Lubavitch, this is one thing that is agreed upon across the board (with few outliers). (You might have heard the joke about the difference between Lubavitch on the one hand and Satmar or Bobov on the other).

Though I believe the true answer is, that regardless of nuances, I think almost everyone אשר בשם ליובאוויטש יכונה agrees that the Rebbe continues to actively lead just like before ג תמוז תשנד (though the form might be different), and therefore the thought doesn't even cross anyone's mind (not that it would matter one bit if it did).
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 10:42:43 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2019, 10:15:14 PM »
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.

Your dear uncle definitely didn't phrase such a question. And based on your explanations given in this thread, would term you a Chabadnik rather than a Lubavitcher. 😉

In other words, and to kind of sum up the situation IMHO, no matter which way one tries to twist things like a pretzel or beyond, the situation we are in cannot be explained based on our גדרי השכל without accepting things that are beyond our comprehension. We need to try to understand things to the extent we are able to, but we also have to accept that אמונה supersedes our understanding. And if our understanding cannot explain a situation, which based on our אמונה in תורת אמת is true, that doesn't shake our emunah one bit. And בנוגע למעשה, we (meaning anyone who wishes to have a שייכות with the Rebbe) should continue to stick to his הוראות, learn his Torah and do whatever we can in order to prepare the world for Moshiach.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 11:16:51 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2019, 10:31:47 PM »
Serious questions.
According to chassidus, can there be more than one Rebbe in the world at one time, or is this neshama limited to only one person at a time?

Let's start by requoting Rabbi Posner (with emphasis added):

Quote
So what is a Rebbe and how can we explain what happens with him? I cannot explain what a Rebbe is because a Rebbe is not a tzaddik, kadosh and tahor, although those are lofty things. But a Rebbe, if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe.

There are more quotes from Rabbi Posner around this specific question, often quoting his father. You're more than welcome to come to a farbrengen where those will be shared with you.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline doodle

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2019, 11:33:24 PM »
Your dear uncle definitely didn't phrase such a question. And based on your explanations given in this thread, would term you a Chabadnik rather than a Lubavitcher. 😉

In other words, and to kind of sum up the situation IMHO, no matter which way one tries to twist things like a pretzel or beyond, the situation we are in cannot be explained based on our גדרי השכל without accepting things that are beyond our comprehension. We need to try to understand things to the extent we are able to, but we also have to accept that אמונה supersedes our understanding. And if our understanding cannot explain a situation, which based on our אמונה in תורת אמת is true, that doesn't shake our emunah one bit. And בנוגע למעשה, we (meaning anyone who wishes to have a שייכות with the Rebbe) should continue to stick to his הוראות, learn his Torah and do whatever we can in order to prepare the world for Moshiach.
Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít . Time to move on . Like Yidden did when The Baal Shem Tov was Niftar , when The Baal HaTanya The Noam Elimelech , Meor Vshemesh etc all were Niftar.
Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important.
Salt Is Good

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2019, 12:06:20 AM »
Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important.

Absolutely!!!

Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway .

So let's be intellectually honest, and approach things with openness of thought.

How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?

How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2019, 12:11:16 AM »
Absolutely!!!

So let's be intellectually honest, and approach things with openness of thought.

How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?

How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?
Would you say the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2019, 12:22:43 AM »

In other words, and to kind of sum up the situation IMHO, no matter which way one tries to twist things like a pretzel or beyond, the situation we are in cannot be explained based on our גדרי השכל without accepting things that are beyond our comprehension. We need to try to understand things to the extent we are able to, but we also have to accept that אמונה supersedes our understanding. And if our understanding cannot explain a situation, which based on our אמונה in תורת אמת is true, that doesn't shake our emunah one bit. And בנוגע למעשה, we (meaning anyone who wishes to have a שייכות with the Rebbe) should continue to stick to his הוראות, learn his Torah and do whatever we can in order to prepare the world for Moshiach.

After reading through chapters 3 and 4, I go back to all those who refused to admit that with over 200 years of retrospect, it is obvious that the Cherem was wrong.

To quote the final paragraph of the conclusion of chapter 3 (which ostensibly brings the point of view against chassidus):



Etkes in disagreement with the claim of Mondshine, that it was the askanim of Vilna who were at the forefront, and they just harnessed the Gr"a for their purposes.

Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".

Dug it up for contrast :)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2019, 12:25:26 AM »
Would you say the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?

Did he say the words "I am Moshiach" in any language or form? Not that I'm aware of. But one learns what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication, one has to be intellectually dishonest (or simply ignorant) to say that the Rebbe "never said he was".
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2019, 12:33:44 AM »
Did he say the words "I am Moshiach" in any language or form? Not that I'm aware of. But one learns what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication, one has to be intellectually dishonest (or simply ignorant) to say that the Rebbe "never said he was".
I'm understanding you're of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?

Offline Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2019, 12:36:22 AM »
Did he say the words "I am Moshiach" in any language or form? Not that I'm aware of. But one learns what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication, one has to be intellectually dishonest (or simply ignorant) to say that the Rebbe "never said he was".

I believe he said
"רבי הוא עצמות ומהות כפי שהלביש עצמו בגוף".

Which leads some mishichistin to this:
https://www.chabad.fm/141/10073.html

What he likely meant was:
הרה"ח ר' שלום פלדמן מכפר חב"ד (לשעבר משפיע בישיבת תות"ל חולון) קירב מישהו לחסידות. שמע היהודי לאחר זמן מה כי חסידי חב"ד מדברים שהרבי הוא עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף - למרות כל ההסברים ששמע- הוא התעצבן נורא והלך.

ר' שלום רץ אחריו והתחנן אליו כי יסע וישאל את הרבי בעצמו. כעבור זמן מה הזדמן לאותו יהודי לנסוע לארה"ב, ואיך שהוא ובהשג"פ יצא לו להכנס עם עוד חסיד חב"ד ליחידות ושאל את הרבי על זה.

ביחידות, הרבי הסביר לו כך (תוכן): הענין הנ"ל מדובר גם עליך, ועל כל יהודי שבו כתיב "חלק אלוקה ממעל ממש", רק יש אחד שמגלה זאת קצת, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת יותר, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת לגמרי, כלומר שגלוי בו בכל רגע ורגע ש"דבר הוי' דיבר בי ומילתו על לשוני
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 12:49:54 AM by Yard sale »

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2019, 12:37:33 AM »
I'm understanding you're of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?
Yes and yes.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline joey89

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2019, 12:38:39 AM »
Mods can you split this thread.

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2019, 12:38:47 AM »
Yes and yes.
If R' Akiva could be wrong about who was Moshiach, why not the Rebbe too?

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2019, 12:43:09 AM »
Mods can you split this thread.
Then it will get locked shortly afterwards :)

Just look at the other threads on this topic. It never ends well
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2019, 12:54:08 AM »
Would you say the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism#During_Schneerson's_life

See "Schneerson's response."
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.