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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 9468 times)

Offline yelped

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2019, 11:19:58 AM »
Journalistic integrity is an oxymoron, but insomuch as it exists, it wouldn't be expected from the interviewer, the interviewee or OP. This thread is trolls baiting concern trolls, attracting bigots, and confusing well meaning bystanders. It's like Twitter, just without character limits (pun intended).
Your puns are awesome.

Offline username

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2019, 11:22:23 AM »
Why wasn't there ever a new rebbe appointed?
Being that a Rebbe is not appointed, but born, your question needs to be directed to ה'.
A Rebbe is a person who has a unique neshama (refered to as a נשמה כללית). If a person is not a Rebbe, they can't be "appointed". So the question (which rabbi Posner said he doesn't know the answer to) is why did ה' create a reality in which there is no such person alive physically.





















[...] To be fair that's not unprecedented as the Rebbe also didn't want to be Rebbe for a year.
But those situations are blatantly different.

???
^^^

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2019, 11:49:24 AM »
I thought that is something from birth and people don't get appointed rebbe?














???


In case there is someone reading who honestly wants to understand;
The Rebbe is the Neshomoh Klolis of the generation he leads. What @Dan is referring to is the Rebbe's reluctance to accept that the generation of which he was the Rebbe had started (which is why, when approached to do "Rebbe things" he referred people to the Freidiker Rebbe).
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 12:06:25 PM by zh cohen »

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2019, 11:56:16 AM »

He became rebbe while the previous rebbes was alive?

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2019, 01:25:31 PM »
In case there is someone reading who honestly wants to understand;
The Rebbe is the Neshomoh Klolis of the generation he leads. What @Dan is referring to is the Rebbe's reluctance to accept that the generation of which he was the Rebbe had started (which is why, when approached to do "Rebbe things" he referred people to the Freidiker Rebbe).

There is a lot here which really looks like twisting into a pretzel to meet some preconceived notions and some interpretations which are only being interpreted that way in order to make them mean what you want them to and not really based on intellectual honesty.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2019, 02:50:06 PM »
There is a lot here which really looks like twisting into a pretzel to meet some preconceived notions and some interpretations which are only being interpreted that way in order to make them mean what you want them to and not really based on intellectual honesty.

I thought I was clear when I wrote
In case there is someone reading who honestly wants to understand;
that I was not responding to you.

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2019, 02:55:03 PM »
I thought I was clear when I wrote that I was not responding to you.
That depends on what you mean by honestly wants to understand. If you mean that everything needs to begin with the premise that it is this way and we are only trying to understand how then you are correct. I would say that I am honestly willing to understand if there is an explanation which makes sense . Meanwhile I haven't seen one. Maybe that is because I am missing some concepts of chassidus, but I am willing to listen. I am not looking to davka understand as opposed to rejecting it. If it is only understandable to those looking to davka understand and not potentially reject the whole premise then that says a lot.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 03:00:04 PM by aygart »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Dan

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Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2019, 05:08:31 PM »
No, a year after his histalkus.
https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/96058/jewish/The-Histalkus-of-a-Rebbe.htm
Ok. So based on what was said before, there was one year without a (living) rebbe. So this is not the first time.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #84 on: July 09, 2019, 05:10:47 PM »
Very interesting. @ExGingi
That's right @ExGingi , forget all about
what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication
we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.

I guess when people have an agenda, and try to invoke intellectual honesty from others, while refusing to apply the same to themselves, your statement is indeed a final closing argument. (Though some might have their judgment so clouded by their agenda, to miss the sarcasm).

journalistic integrity would require you to disclaim your relation to the interview
and I daresay said relationship has clouded your judgment as to whether this is the best thing to post. the rest of us know him as a truth shock jock

I don't think a disclaimer is needed. I posted the article because I saw it on Shabbos, and (unlike most of those related to him, even more closely than myself or for a longer time than myself) I like his style (always did). I do agree that my judgment as to how and what to respond to has been clouded by my emotions (nothing to do with the interview, but rather some of the responses in this thread that were written by people who attended תומכי תמימים). I should have stuck to insisting that blatant accusations made without any source or backing, are just those, and should be valued as such, while disclaiming any responses to questions addressed to me that were written by others.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 05:14:07 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2019, 05:31:30 PM »
forget all about we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.

While on that topic. I actually followed the footnote in Wikipedia, which alleges that this happened in 1992. I don't have access to all the videos of Dollars from 1992 (not that many) but a search through Sunday dollars videos available on https://www.rebbedrive.com/ didn't come up with such, nor did a Google search for relevant terms come up with anything. Does anyone have a link to the purported video?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2019, 05:36:07 PM »
Is it OK to post this?



(There are some errors in the subtitles, most notable is at 1:59 הגיע instead of הגיה).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2019, 06:50:59 PM »
That's right @ExGingi , forget all about we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.


I guess when people have an agenda, and try to invoke intellectual honesty from others, while refusing to apply the same to themselves, your statement is indeed a final closing argument. (Though some might have their judgment so clouded by their agenda, to miss the sarcasm).
I never invoked intellectual honesty, I was just curious how you would respond to those Wikipedia stories. I understand you're saying they're not true.

What would be your response to this?
If R' Akiva could be wrong about who was Moshiach, why not the Rebbe too?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2019, 07:08:49 PM »
I never invoked intellectual honesty, I was just curious how you would respond to those Wikipedia stories. I understand you're saying they're not true.
I wasn't referring to you. And no, I didn't say the Wikipedia story isn't true, I am asking for a source, other than hearsay.

What would be your response to this?
I am waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2019, 07:25:53 PM »
While on that topic. I actually followed the footnote in Wikipedia, which alleges that this happened in 1992. I don't have access to all the videos of Dollars from 1992 (not that many) but a search through Sunday dollars videos available on https://www.rebbedrive.com/ didn't come up with such, nor did a Google search for relevant terms come up with anything. Does anyone have a link to the purported video?

Why don't you ask the author of that letter? Or ask JEM, the named source? Or is it easier to cast aspersions and pretend like searching a site that does not (or should not) publish anything owned by JEM means anything?