Topic Wiki

ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 9428 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7162
  • Total likes: 270
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #90 on: July 09, 2019, 07:35:16 PM »
Yes and yes.
Meh, that was an easy one.. Guys watch ExGingi evade this one. He won't answer yes or no.

Do you believe the rebbeh is a god?

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6028
  • Total likes: 988
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2019, 07:41:45 PM »
No need for me to respond where שלמה המלך already did.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7162
  • Total likes: 270
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2019, 07:45:51 PM »
No need for me to respond where שלמה המלך already did.
LOL I won.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6861
  • Total likes: 1549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2019, 07:58:32 PM »
I never invoked intellectual honesty, I was just curious how you would respond to those Wikipedia stories. I understand you're saying they're not true.

What would be your response to this?
He means me.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline yelped

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 4280
  • Total likes: 221
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 9
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2019, 08:07:31 PM »
This thread is absolutely mind boggling.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6028
  • Total likes: 988
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #95 on: July 09, 2019, 08:10:03 PM »
He means me.
I most definitely did not. I didn't see any evidence of you being anything but intellectually honest in this thread.

I erred in making my statement about those invoking intellectual honesty, as I have now gone back through this thread and didn't see that explicitly invoked by those I was alluding to.

I would hope that everyone here be intellectually (and otherwise) honest. Though unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the rule.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6028
  • Total likes: 988
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #96 on: July 09, 2019, 08:17:08 PM »
ביחידות, הרבי הסביר לו כך (תוכן): הענין הנ"ל מדובר גם עליך, ועל כל יהודי שבו כתיב "חלק אלוקה ממעל ממש", רק יש אחד שמגלה זאת קצת, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת יותר, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת לגמרי, כלומר שגלוי בו בכל רגע ורגע ש"דבר הוי' דיבר בי ומילתו על לשוני

How is this any different than what I wrote here?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6861
  • Total likes: 1549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #97 on: July 09, 2019, 08:40:55 PM »
Do you not see why someone would consider someone saying that a physical happening to a human being would be a reason to stop wearing tefillin c"v to be very problematic regardless of how chashuv or what special neshama that person may have? Do you not see how that problem is one in ikrei ha'emuna? Maybe there are answers to why it would not be a problem (I do not know of any) but if you cannot see why someone would find that to be extremely problematic then that is problematic in and of itself.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7162
  • Total likes: 270
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #98 on: July 09, 2019, 08:54:57 PM »
Do you not see why someone would consider someone saying that a physical happening to a human being would be a reason to stop wearing tefillin c"v to be very problematic regardless of how chashuv or what special neshama that person may have? Do you not see how that problem is one in ikrei ha'emuna? Maybe there are answers to why it would not be a problem (I do not know of any) but if you cannot see why someone would find that to be extremely problematic then that is problematic in and of itself.
You do understand though what they mean when they say that the mitzvos are dependent on his existence, right?

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 9895
  • Total likes: 56
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2019, 09:12:04 PM »
Did he say the words "I am Moshiach" in any language or form? Not that I'm aware of. But one learns what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication, one has to be intellectually dishonest (or simply ignorant) to say that the Rebbe "never said he was".

Whether he claimed to be Moshiach or not is besides the point, the problem is why he didn't make it crystal clear that he isn't.
Purpose > Pleasure

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 1176
  • Total likes: 984
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2019, 09:55:25 PM »
Do you not see why someone would consider someone saying that a physical happening to a human being would be a reason to stop wearing tefillin c"v to be very problematic regardless of how chashuv or what special neshama that person may have? Do you not see how that problem is one in ikrei ha'emuna? Maybe there are answers to why it would not be a problem (I do not know of any) but if you cannot see why someone would find that to be extremely problematic then that is problematic in and of itself.
Did those people stop putting on tefillin? Maybe, just maybe, and I have never asked the people quoted myself, but perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later? I dunno, just spitballing here.



Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 1176
  • Total likes: 984
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2019, 09:57:37 PM »
Whether he claimed to be Moshiach or not is besides the point, the problem is why he didn't make it crystal clear that he isn't.
Glad this forum has such a giant so as to have the cojones to point out problems with the Rebbe.
Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6861
  • Total likes: 1549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #102 on: July 09, 2019, 10:30:33 PM »
Did those people stop putting on tefillin? Maybe, just maybe, and I have never asked the people quoted myself, but perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later? I dunno, just spitballing here.
I understand the answer that maybe it wasn't meant that way or taken out of context, but that is only a partial answer for something of such magnitude. It is also not the reaction that there has been in this thread about those who took it at face value and found it problematic. Saying "It wasn't meant that way" means that the way it sounds is truly problematic. Until your post, I have not seen any "Lubavitchers" concede that it any way at all. Do you concede that?

Was this really typed now about an interview from 30 years ago? Maybe I missed it, but I saw no indication of that.

This that they are all still wearing Tefillin he seems to be explaining by saying that what seems to have occurred isn't really as it seems but that he doesn't understand how rather than that the entire premise that it would be a reason to stop wearing Tefillin is incorrect.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 11:18:46 PM by aygart »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6861
  • Total likes: 1549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #103 on: July 09, 2019, 10:32:22 PM »
You do understand though what they mean when they say that the mitzvos are dependent on his existence, right?
I understand how you are interpreting it and note that no other explanation has been offered other than @Yehuda57 seeming to say that it wasn't meant that way at all.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 9895
  • Total likes: 56
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #104 on: July 09, 2019, 10:58:38 PM »
Saying "It wasn't meant that way" means that the way it sounds is truly problematic.
Well said.
Purpose > Pleasure