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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 11943 times)

Offline joey89

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2019, 12:59:25 AM »
Then it will get locked shortly afterwards :)

Just look at the other threads on this topic. It never ends well

Wouldnít be the worst thing

Offline joey89

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2019, 01:02:52 AM »
Mods can you split this thread.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism#During_Schneerson's_life

See "Schneerson's response."
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.

Guess itís not gonna happen

Online Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2019, 01:05:49 AM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism#During_Schneerson's_life

See "Schneerson's response."
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.

Thank you.

ďIn 1992, a journalist from Israel said to the Rebbe, "We appreciate you very much, we want to see you in Israel; you said soon you will be in Israel, so when will you come?" The Rebbe responded: "I also want to be in Israel." The journalist insisted, "So when, when will you come?" The Rebbe responded, "That depends on the Moshiach, not on me." The journalist persisted, "You are the Moshiach!" to which the Rebbe responded, "I am not."[51]Ē

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2019, 07:31:14 AM »

But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe

But that's nothing new...

Quote
A few months later, a few people did muster the courage to start singing at an intermission in a Shabbos farbrengen a less overt song that implied that the Rebbe was the messiah. Within a few seconds the Rebbe heard it and immediately became very grave and said: "Really, I should get up and leave [the room]. Even if some people consider it is not respectful that I need to [be the one to leave], I donít need to reckon with the views of a small number when [what they are saying] is the opposite of reality. However, first of all, it will unfortunately not help anyway. Secondly, it will disrupt the shevet achim gam yachad [brethren to dwell together in unity], for if I were to leave, others will leave, too."
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 07:36:53 AM by zh cohen »

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2019, 09:07:55 AM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism#During_Schneerson's_life

See "Schneerson's response."
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.
Very interesting. @ExGingi

Offline grodnoking

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2019, 09:09:29 AM »
Split the tread!
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2019, 09:12:52 AM »
Very interesting. @ExGingi
The meshichists will say that it's their job to force it on him until he accepts a coronation. To be fair that's not unprecedented as the Rebbe also didn't want to be Rebbe for a year.
But those situations are blatantly different.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2019, 09:14:10 AM »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2019, 09:20:18 AM »
The meshichists will say that it's their job to force it on him until he accepts a coronation. To be fair that's not unprecedented as the Rebbe also didn't want to be Rebbe for a year.
But those situations are blatantly different.
I don't think Moshiach is something that gets forced on people. You either are or aren't...

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2019, 10:05:42 AM »
I don't think Moshiach is something that gets forced on people. You either are or aren't...
Why would it be different than Shaul, Dovid, etc? (In those situations it wasn't people that forced it on them, it was Hashem), but I would think if they refused to accept it, they had bechira. I agree with the idea you are trying to say that it's not up to the person's followers, but I wouldn't say unequivocally that you are or you aren't.

Online aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2019, 10:16:09 AM »
The meshichists will say that it's their job to force it on him until he accepts a coronation. To be fair that's not unprecedented as the Rebbe also didn't want to be Rebbe for a year.
But those situations are blatantly different.
I thought that is something from birth and people don't get appointed rebbe?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline gozalim

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2019, 10:25:15 AM »
http://beismoshiachmagazine.org/articles/chabadnikim-know-everything-they-have-an-explanation-for-eve.html
journalistic integrity would require you to disclaim your relation to the interview
and I daresay said relationship has clouded your judgment as to whether this is the best thing to post. the rest of us know him as a truth shock jock
and that's probably half the answer to
But some people like to think they're smarter than their Rebbe and bring up articles from BM magazine for what purpose other than machlokes I don't know.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 10:39:31 AM by gozalim »

Online whYME

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2019, 10:33:36 AM »
Very interesting. @ExGingi
That's right @ExGingi , forget all about
what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication
we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2019, 10:59:36 AM »
journalistic integrity would require you to disclaim your relation to the interview
and I daresay said relationship has clouded your judgment as to whether this is the best thing to post. the rest of us know him as a truth shock jock

Journalistic integrity is an oxymoron, but insomuch as it exists, it wouldn't be expected from the interviewer, the interviewee or OP. This thread is trolls baiting concern trolls, attracting bigots, and confusing well meaning bystanders. It's like Twitter, just without character limits (pun intended).
Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Offline gozalim

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2019, 11:01:02 AM »
evidently he's smarter than
Quote
One of the things said there, and I havenít found it since, because they left it out due to instructions from above Ö (I donít see it in the Hisvaaduyos but there are other versions in other places):