Topic Wiki

ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then that’s not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasn’t ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid … then we can stop putting on t’fillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "It’s easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? It’s like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 54634 times)

Online zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1501
  • Total likes: 1675
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2019, 02:50:06 PM »
There is a lot here which really looks like twisting into a pretzel to meet some preconceived notions and some interpretations which are only being interpreted that way in order to make them mean what you want them to and not really based on intellectual honesty.

I thought I was clear when I wrote
In case there is someone reading who honestly wants to understand;
that I was not responding to you.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17398
  • Total likes: 14338
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2019, 02:55:03 PM »
I thought I was clear when I wrote that I was not responding to you.
That depends on what you mean by honestly wants to understand. If you mean that everything needs to begin with the premise that it is this way and we are only trying to understand how then you are correct. I would say that I am honestly willing to understand if there is an explanation which makes sense . Meanwhile I haven't seen one. Maybe that is because I am missing some concepts of chassidus, but I am willing to listen. I am not looking to davka understand as opposed to rejecting it. If it is only understandable to those looking to davka understand and not potentially reject the whole premise then that says a lot.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 03:00:04 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67599
  • Total likes: 16912
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yitzgar

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 3078
  • Total likes: 1277
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2019, 05:08:31 PM »
No, a year after his histalkus.
https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/96058/jewish/The-Histalkus-of-a-Rebbe.htm
Ok. So based on what was said before, there was one year without a (living) rebbe. So this is not the first time.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #84 on: July 09, 2019, 05:10:47 PM »
Very interesting. @ExGingi
That's right @ExGingi , forget all about
what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication
we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.

I guess when people have an agenda, and try to invoke intellectual honesty from others, while refusing to apply the same to themselves, your statement is indeed a final closing argument. (Though some might have their judgment so clouded by their agenda, to miss the sarcasm).

journalistic integrity would require you to disclaim your relation to the interview
and I daresay said relationship has clouded your judgment as to whether this is the best thing to post. the rest of us know him as a truth shock jock

I don't think a disclaimer is needed. I posted the article because I saw it on Shabbos, and (unlike most of those related to him, even more closely than myself or for a longer time than myself) I like his style (always did). I do agree that my judgment as to how and what to respond to has been clouded by my emotions (nothing to do with the interview, but rather some of the responses in this thread that were written by people who attended תומכי תמימים). I should have stuck to insisting that blatant accusations made without any source or backing, are just those, and should be valued as such, while disclaiming any responses to questions addressed to me that were written by others.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 05:14:07 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2019, 05:31:30 PM »
forget all about we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.

While on that topic. I actually followed the footnote in Wikipedia, which alleges that this happened in 1992. I don't have access to all the videos of Dollars from 1992 (not that many) but a search through Sunday dollars videos available on https://www.rebbedrive.com/ didn't come up with such, nor did a Google search for relevant terms come up with anything. Does anyone have a link to the purported video?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2019, 05:36:07 PM »
Is it OK to post this?



(There are some errors in the subtitles, most notable is at 1:59 הגיע instead of הגיה).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 3863
  • Total likes: 388
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2019, 06:50:59 PM »
That's right @ExGingi , forget all about we have wikipedia and you've been proven wrong.


I guess when people have an agenda, and try to invoke intellectual honesty from others, while refusing to apply the same to themselves, your statement is indeed a final closing argument. (Though some might have their judgment so clouded by their agenda, to miss the sarcasm).
I never invoked intellectual honesty, I was just curious how you would respond to those Wikipedia stories. I understand you're saying they're not true.

What would be your response to this?
If R' Akiva could be wrong about who was Moshiach, why not the Rebbe too?

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2019, 07:08:49 PM »
I never invoked intellectual honesty, I was just curious how you would respond to those Wikipedia stories. I understand you're saying they're not true.
I wasn't referring to you. And no, I didn't say the Wikipedia story isn't true, I am asking for a source, other than hearsay.

What would be your response to this?
I am waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1501
  • Total likes: 1675
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2019, 07:25:53 PM »
While on that topic. I actually followed the footnote in Wikipedia, which alleges that this happened in 1992. I don't have access to all the videos of Dollars from 1992 (not that many) but a search through Sunday dollars videos available on https://www.rebbedrive.com/ didn't come up with such, nor did a Google search for relevant terms come up with anything. Does anyone have a link to the purported video?

Why don't you ask the author of that letter? Or ask JEM, the named source? Or is it easier to cast aspersions and pretend like searching a site that does not (or should not) publish anything owned by JEM means anything?

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #90 on: July 09, 2019, 07:35:16 PM »
Yes and yes.
Meh, that was an easy one.. Guys watch ExGingi evade this one. He won't answer yes or no.

Do you believe the rebbeh is a god?

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2019, 07:41:45 PM »
No need for me to respond where שלמה המלך already did.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2019, 07:45:51 PM »
No need for me to respond where שלמה המלך already did.
LOL I won.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17398
  • Total likes: 14338
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2019, 07:58:32 PM »
I never invoked intellectual honesty, I was just curious how you would respond to those Wikipedia stories. I understand you're saying they're not true.

What would be your response to this?
He means me.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yelped

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 10471
  • Total likes: 3833
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 43
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2019, 08:07:31 PM »
This thread is absolutely mind boggling.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #95 on: July 09, 2019, 08:10:03 PM »
He means me.
I most definitely did not. I didn't see any evidence of you being anything but intellectually honest in this thread.

I erred in making my statement about those invoking intellectual honesty, as I have now gone back through this thread and didn't see that explicitly invoked by those I was alluding to.

I would hope that everyone here be intellectually (and otherwise) honest. Though unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the rule.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15620
  • Total likes: 7712
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #96 on: July 09, 2019, 08:17:08 PM »
ביחידות, הרבי הסביר לו כך (תוכן): הענין הנ"ל מדובר גם עליך, ועל כל יהודי שבו כתיב "חלק אלוקה ממעל ממש", רק יש אחד שמגלה זאת קצת, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת יותר, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת לגמרי, כלומר שגלוי בו בכל רגע ורגע ש"דבר הוי' דיבר בי ומילתו על לשוני

How is this any different than what I wrote here?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17398
  • Total likes: 14338
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #97 on: July 09, 2019, 08:40:55 PM »
Do you not see why someone would consider someone saying that a physical happening to a human being would be a reason to stop wearing tefillin c"v to be very problematic regardless of how chashuv or what special neshama that person may have? Do you not see how that problem is one in ikrei ha'emuna? Maybe there are answers to why it would not be a problem (I do not know of any) but if you cannot see why someone would find that to be extremely problematic then that is problematic in and of itself.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #98 on: July 09, 2019, 08:54:57 PM »
Do you not see why someone would consider someone saying that a physical happening to a human being would be a reason to stop wearing tefillin c"v to be very problematic regardless of how chashuv or what special neshama that person may have? Do you not see how that problem is one in ikrei ha'emuna? Maybe there are answers to why it would not be a problem (I do not know of any) but if you cannot see why someone would find that to be extremely problematic then that is problematic in and of itself.
You do understand though what they mean when they say that the mitzvos are dependent on his existence, right?

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2019, 09:12:04 PM »
Did he say the words "I am Moshiach" in any language or form? Not that I'm aware of. But one learns what the Rebbe did say and authorize for publication, one has to be intellectually dishonest (or simply ignorant) to say that the Rebbe "never said he was".

Whether he claimed to be Moshiach or not is besides the point, the problem is why he didn't make it crystal clear that he isn't.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים