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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 11880 times)

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #120 on: July 10, 2019, 12:03:01 PM »
Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines? I haven't picked one up since high school.
Derher is a good magazine to start with.
Half the people here don't know anything about the magazine other than that it was posted here by @ExGingi . I never heard of it until now.

Online aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2019, 12:04:10 PM »
Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines? I haven't picked one up since high school.
Derher is a good magazine to start with.

What magazine is it? It was an article posted here by a member.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2019, 12:26:30 PM »
Half the people here don't know anything about the magazine other than that it was posted here by @ExGingi . I never heard of it until now.
What magazine is it? It was an article posted here by a member.
It's an extremist fringe magazine and wouldn't be found in 99% of official Chabad Houses. Any other questions?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline chbochur

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #123 on: July 10, 2019, 01:54:10 PM »
Without getting caught up in all this I'd like to mention that I asked a friend in jem who in turn asked around in the office and as of yet no one can remember of such a video where the rebbe says something so blatantly that he is not moshiach. I'm gonna move on to ask the one who wrote that article (Chaim rapoport) if he can produce the source and date/video of that encounter.

Another point (although I don't consider myself a mishechist - which in itself the term needs a proper definition) for someone who went through the rebbes Torah (not even all of it) and understands/appreciates the rebbes style and sees where he speaks about the nossi hador being the moshiach shebador, as well as where he speaks about a rebbe living a chayim nitzchiim it is (in my opinion) impossible not to see (not saying agree with) where those who believe the rebbe to be moshiach get the idea from and why they feel that way, and one must say they have a valid opinion based on the rebbes teachings (unless of course you throw out the whole Sefer hasichos in addition to other sichos which some can't explain).

As a reminder I don't consider myself a mishechist at all but I do respect those who feel the rebbe to be moshiach (not talking about the Israeli mishechist style or tzfati elokist movement)

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #124 on: July 10, 2019, 02:01:40 PM »
Every yid is a חלק אלו-ה ממעל ממש as the Alter Rebbe stresses in Tanya.

In some that's something that is completely concealed ch"v (though even they are willing to be moser nefesh rather than convert) and at the other end of the spectrum (in a Rebbe) it's completely revealed.

Any other questions, or can we lock this thread yet?

« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 02:17:11 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online whYME

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #125 on: July 10, 2019, 02:14:28 PM »
can we lock this thread yet?
Part of me says yes, otherwise at some point I'm probably going to have to go and actually read the article from the OP

Part of me also wants to respond to @chbochur but I do need to get some work done today so I don't think that's a good idea...

Offline chbochur

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #126 on: July 10, 2019, 02:18:04 PM »
Part of me says yes, otherwise at some point I'm probably going to have to go and actually read the article from the OP

Part of me also wants to respond to @chbochur but I do need to get some work done today so I don't think that's a good idea...
You're gonna let a little work get in the way in answering the world's greatest unanswered question?

But in full seriousness You're welcome to pm me to set up a chavrusah in the rebbes torah or if you need clarification on when learning it on your own

Online yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #127 on: July 10, 2019, 02:26:33 PM »
The way Dan puts it, there isn't anything controversial going on. The question is why others seem to be beating around the bush, if they agree with him, let them come out and say it clearly.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #128 on: July 10, 2019, 02:34:09 PM »
The way Dan puts it, there isn't anything controversial going on. The question is why others seem to be beating around the bush, if they agree with him, let them come out and say it clearly.
The concepts of G-dliness in mankind and Moshiach are controversial due to what Christianity has done with them by calling man a Gd and Messiah. Once you move past that and realize that there is nothing practiced by mainstream Lubavitchers that falls outside of halachic judaism, there's nothing of substance in the whole thing other than there surely are some
Israeli mishechist style or tzfati elokist movement)
that have sadly lost their way.

But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #129 on: July 10, 2019, 02:41:03 PM »
The concepts of G-dliness in mankind and Moshiach are controversial due to what Christianity has done with them by calling man a Gd and Messiah. Once you move past that and realize that there is nothing practiced by mainstream Lubavitchers that falls outside of halachic judaism, there's nothing of substance in the whole thing other than there surely are some  that have sadly lost their way.

But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.
I'm perfectly happy with this clarification. Like I said, I (and I assume others such as aygart) are just wondering why we haven't heard anything as clear from others who I respect based on their history here on DDF.

Online yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #130 on: July 10, 2019, 02:41:42 PM »




But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.

+

Online aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #131 on: July 10, 2019, 02:44:18 PM »
The concepts of G-dliness in mankind and Moshiach are controversial due to what Christianity has done with them by calling man a Gd and Messiah. Once you move past that and realize that there is nothing practiced by mainstream Lubavitchers that falls outside of halachic judaism, there's nothing of substance in the whole thing other than there surely are some  that have sadly lost their way.

But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.

This is what I would like to believe. Every now and then something pops up causing me to question that. When it does then the best route (with me) will be to just answer the stupid question and go on.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline chbochur

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #132 on: July 10, 2019, 02:45:19 PM »


Tthere's nothing of substance in the whole thing other than there surely are some  that have sadly lost their way.

But every movement in the world has their extreme 1% that doesn't speak for the 99%.

Unfortunately I can't agree that they have "lost their way" I feel they were on a different path from day one (a more theoretical one as opposed to living with or visiting the (physical) rebbe often). Hence to these people gimmel tammuz really hasn't changed anything.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #133 on: July 10, 2019, 03:00:07 PM »
I'm perfectly happy with this clarification. Like I said, I (and I assume others such as aygart) are just wondering why we haven't heard anything as clear from others who I respect based on their history here on DDF.

You were expecting clear answers from @ExGingi. As has been mentioned before, though I can't find the exact post, @ExGingi and @churnbabychurn are basically mirror images of each other, just they do their trolling from extreme Chabad and Litvak perspectives.



I was wondering what was up with CBC. I had become used to the kinder gentler CBC. Now I see he is just hazing ex-gingi.

CBC I'll make you a deal... You stop taking the bait from every Lubavitcher who posts on ddf and I'll stop mentioning shaving and cholov akum.

All the above is meant of course in good spirit of holiday cheer.

Oh c'mon. We've been doing this every year since at least 2013. All in good spirit of the holiday cheer.

Exgingi is kinda new, and also very hard core.. so I thought it would be interesting to get in another perspective..- turns out he needs to get people to sit in his succah and have a couple of shots before he reveals the secrets.


« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 03:20:38 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #134 on: July 10, 2019, 03:00:51 PM »
This is what I would like to believe. Every now and then something pops up causing me to question that. When it does then the best route (with me) will be to just answer the stupid question and go on.
Many people are offended by stupid questions and feel that dignifying them with an answer is giving space to the validity of said question.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.