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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then that’s not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasn’t ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid … then we can stop putting on t’fillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "It’s easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? It’s like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 18090 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #135 on: July 10, 2019, 03:01:26 PM »

Unfortunately I can't agree that they have "lost their way" I feel they were on a different path from day one (a more theoretical one as opposed to living with or visiting the (physical) rebbe often). Hence to these people gimmel tammuz really hasn't changed anything.
Fair enough.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #136 on: July 10, 2019, 03:14:55 PM »
I'm perfectly happy with this clarification. Like I said, I (and I assume others such as aygart) are just wondering why we haven't heard anything as clear from others who I respect based on their history here on DDF.
You mean this:
Why do you think this isn't relevant to צמצום לאו כפשוטו. While this is not the proper forum or format to delve into it, and there are plenty who are much better versed than I am. Or that can explain things better than myself, I will attempt to do so on a very simplistic level (without actually trying to explain what the Rebbe is). Once we understand that צמצום לאו כפשוטו, and we understand that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it). And since a Rebbe is in complete ביטול to his creator, his existence reveals the creator rather than conceal it, and as a result

https://i.imgur.com/yJDTlc9.png

And this

What he likely meant was:
הרה"ח ר' שלום פלדמן מכפר חב"ד (לשעבר משפיע בישיבת תות"ל חולון) קירב מישהו לחסידות. שמע היהודי לאחר זמן מה כי חסידי חב"ד מדברים שהרבי הוא עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף - למרות כל ההסברים ששמע- הוא התעצבן נורא והלך.

ר' שלום רץ אחריו והתחנן אליו כי יסע וישאל את הרבי בעצמו. כעבור זמן מה הזדמן לאותו יהודי לנסוע לארה"ב, ואיך שהוא ובהשג"פ יצא לו להכנס עם עוד חסיד חב"ד ליחידות ושאל את הרבי על זה.

ביחידות, הרבי הסביר לו כך (תוכן): הענין הנ"ל מדובר גם עליך, ועל כל יהודי שבו כתיב "חלק אלוקה ממעל ממש", רק יש אחד שמגלה זאת קצת, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת יותר, ויש אחד שמגלה זאת לגמרי, כלומר שגלוי בו בכל רגע ורגע ש"דבר הוי' דיבר בי ומילתו על לשוני

And remember
This thread is trolls baiting concern trolls, attracting bigots, and confusing well meaning bystanders. It's like Twitter, just without character limits (pun intended).

In summary, trolls gonna troll, haters gonna hate, and snarkers gonna snark.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #137 on: July 10, 2019, 03:18:30 PM »
Many people are offended by stupid questions and feel that dignifying them with an answer is giving space to the validity of said question.
I personally would be equally satisfied with an answer via PM.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline chbochur

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #138 on: July 10, 2019, 05:03:57 PM »
An interesting collection of responses of the rebbe on this matter
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nOjfaNMpC3n41yB3o2bhFflpfl3ASc4l/view?usp=drivesdk

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #139 on: July 10, 2019, 05:07:13 PM »
I will be in Lakewood tomorrow afternoon bez"h. If anyone wants to meet and have a civilized discussion, PM.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #140 on: July 10, 2019, 05:12:21 PM »
I will be in Lakewood tomorrow afternoon bez"h. If anyone wants to meet and have a civilized discussion, PM.
Fish Grill DO?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #141 on: July 10, 2019, 06:39:01 PM »
?s=09


They have nothing on lubavich though.

Offline gingyguy

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #142 on: July 10, 2019, 06:49:30 PM »
Fish Grill DO?
you gonna fly in?
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Online Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #143 on: July 10, 2019, 07:11:08 PM »
So to summarize, whether it is your mesorah to subscribe to the modus operandi or not, the Rebbe was a holy Jew who had an impact on untold numbers of אחינו בני ישראל. To Lubavitchers he was much more than that but the concepts that need to be properly understood to understand the nature of that are not ideas that can be acquired על רגל אחת. The magazine originally quoted is a fringe magazine that the vast majority of Lubavitchers would find problematic and would not have in their homes....

Offline chbochur

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #144 on: July 10, 2019, 07:15:46 PM »
So to summarize, whether it is your mesorah to subscribe to the modus operandi or not, the Rebbe was a holy Jew who had an impact on untold numbers of אחינו בני ישראל. To Lubavitchers he was much more than that but the concepts that need to be properly understood to understand the nature of that are not ideas that can be acquired על רגל אחת. The magazine originally quoted is a fringe magazine that the vast majority of Lubavitchers would find problematic and would not have in their homes....
I would agree with this (but not with your previous comments mentioned earlier)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #145 on: July 10, 2019, 07:28:13 PM »
So to summarize, whether it is your mesorah to subscribe to the modus operandi or not, the Rebbe was a holy Jew who had an impact on untold numbers of אחינו בני ישראל. To Lubavitchers he was much more than that but the concepts that need to be properly understood to understand the nature of that are not ideas that can be acquired על רגל אחת. The magazine originally quoted is a fringe magazine that the vast majority of Lubavitchers would find problematic and would not have in their homes....
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.

Online Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #146 on: July 10, 2019, 07:37:28 PM »
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.

I am not Chabad. And your last statement is ridiculous.

Offline chbochur

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #147 on: July 10, 2019, 07:39:59 PM »


Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.

Just to mention I don't necessarily agree with this statement summarizing most chabadskers views or how many of them do or don't believe in the yud gimmel ikrim.

And I fail to understand your second point why the rest of the velt sees chabad to be contrary to the ikrim

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #148 on: July 10, 2019, 07:41:56 PM »
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.
Utter stupidity.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline whYME

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #149 on: July 10, 2019, 07:45:12 PM »
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.
So basically "problematic" = "so far beyond the 13 ikrim" and "[cannot] be acquired על רגל אחת" = "too deep to articulate in plain English"
Yeah, seems legit.  ::)