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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 11979 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #150 on: July 10, 2019, 07:50:53 PM »
So to summarize, whether it is your mesorah to subscribe to the modus operandi or not, the Rebbe was a holy Jew who had an impact on untold numbers of אחינו בני ישראל. To Lubavitchers he was much more than that but the concepts that need to be properly understood to understand the nature of that are not ideas that can be acquired על רגל אחת. The magazine originally quoted is a fringe magazine that the vast majority of Lubavitchers would find problematic and would not have in their homes....
Sounds right.
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Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #151 on: July 10, 2019, 07:51:28 PM »
So basically "problematic" = "so far beyond the 13 ikrim" and "[cannot] be acquired על רגל אחת" = "too deep to articulate in plain English"

Ftfy
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Offline ExGingi

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BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #152 on: July 10, 2019, 10:58:16 PM »
I think that it may be beneficial for you to review exactly what I have posted in this thread with their nuances from the beginning and compare that with what some have assumed my opinion here has been. Also, don't leave the very real existence of confirmation bias out of the equation. Indignation will not solve that but dialogue may.

As little as we know each other, I think I know you well enough and definitely have respect for you. Your questions and issues raised were mostly well articulated and sounded legitimate. You lost me when you gave credibility to CBC who is best ignored, as he has his mind made up and doesn't care one bit about finding out facts.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 12:47:15 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline CountValentine

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #153 on: July 10, 2019, 11:07:21 PM »
The concepts of G-dliness in mankind and Moshiach are controversial due to what Christianity has done with them by calling man a Gd and Messiah.
If there is controversy don't blame it on Christianity. Might be a good time to lock the thread.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #154 on: July 10, 2019, 11:15:27 PM »
Without getting caught up in all this I'd like to mention that I asked a friend in jem who in turn asked around in the office and as of yet no one can remember of such a video where the rebbe says something so blatantly that he is not moshiach. I'm gonna move on to ask the one who wrote that article (Chaim rapoport) if he can produce the source and date/video of that encounter.

Another point (although I don't consider myself a mishechist - which in itself the term needs a proper definition) for someone who went through the rebbes Torah (not even all of it) and understands/appreciates the rebbes style and sees where he speaks about the nossi hador being the moshiach shebador, as well as where he speaks about a rebbe living a chayim nitzchiim it is (in my opinion) impossible not to see (not saying agree with) where those who believe the rebbe to be moshiach get the idea from and why they feel that way, and one must say they have a valid opinion based on the rebbes teachings (unless of course you throw out the whole Sefer hasichos in addition to other sichos which some can't explain).

As a reminder I don't consider myself a mishechist at all but I do respect those who feel the rebbe to be moshiach (not talking about the Israeli mishechist style or tzfati elokist movement)

Finally someone who might feel he disagrees with me (though our level of agreement is probably somewhere around 99% or thereabouts) with (intellectual) honesty.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #155 on: July 10, 2019, 11:19:47 PM »
If there is controversy don't blame it on Christianity. Might be a good time to lock the thread.
Is it Friday yet?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #156 on: July 10, 2019, 11:21:17 PM »
Is it Friday yet?
With your post I thought you got your days mixed up. You sure got the blame mixed up.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline ExGingi

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #157 on: July 11, 2019, 01:07:29 AM »
Why should anyone need to defend anything written in the Howard Stern of chabad magazines? I haven't picked one up since high school.
Derher is a good magazine to start with.

So if R' @Dan hasn't picked one up since high school, and starts name calling (CBC style) then we should all follow his מעשה רב. Never mind that said quote is brought in the name of R' Yoel Kahan, and while I don't recall hearing it from him, having worked with him in the late 80s and early 90s, I wouldn't put the quote beyond him. Was definitely his style. (There was an Israeli TV show about the topic which starts off with an excerpt of an interview with his Rebbetzin where she makes sure that the interviewer records her response as being certain that the Rebbe is Moshiach. If I can find it, I could post it as long as @Dan will allow it).

It's an extremist fringe magazine and wouldn't be found in 99% of official Chabad Houses. Any other questions?

So if there are two "factions" the other one is extremist fringe.  ::)

To quote Rabbi Posner again, he has two things to say about the political factions:
אלע שרייען רבי און מיינען זיך. (For some reason I can see some idiot taking this to mean something else than it means).  And אלו ואלו בצפצוף מצפצפים.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #158 on: July 11, 2019, 08:24:57 AM »

אלע שרייען רבי און מיינען זיך. (For some reason I can see some idiot taking this to mean something else than it means).

I'm not sure how political factions became part of this discussion, but in the context of this thread, great response! "Sure, you're following the Rebbe's explicit instructions, but your doing it for the wrong reasons..."

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #159 on: July 11, 2019, 09:56:04 AM »
As little as we know each other, I think I know you well enough and definitely have respect for you. Your questions and issues raised were mostly well articulated and sounded legitimate. You lost me when you gave credibility to CBC who is best ignored, as he has his mind made up and doesn't care one bit about finding out facts.



If I would not give credence to @churnbabychurn yet give credence to you would that be intellectually honest? He has his mind made up but you don't?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #160 on: July 11, 2019, 10:12:50 AM »
The fun thing about *someone else's* שיטות, is that it's pronounced the same in Hebrew and English.
Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #161 on: July 11, 2019, 10:15:06 AM »
starts name calling (CBC style)
You and CBC are the DDF kanoim. Don't be shy about it.
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Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #162 on: July 11, 2019, 10:17:21 AM »
So if there are two "factions" the other one is extremist fringe.  ::)

אלע שרייען רבי און מיינען זיך. (For some reason I can see some idiot taking this to mean something else than it means).  And אלו ואלו בצפצוף מצפצפים.
Don't forget to correct Benny that these guys are actually not extremists:
http://crownheights.info/communal-matters/590043/r-yoel-kahan-farbrengen-interrupted-hoodlums/
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #163 on: July 11, 2019, 11:28:40 AM »
Fascinating that you are saying that the views expressed in the mag are problematic to most chabadskers etc. So apparently even within chabad, some of you know that there are others who's beliefs are so far beyond the 13 ikrim.. it's just a matter of degree... (And all of it is "too deep to articulate in plain English").

Now if you think about it, I'm sure you can better understand why the rest of Torah Judaism sees virtually all of the chabbad belief system as contradictory to the ikrim.

Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישוע is also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן הספה ולחוץ.

There are several versions of the story, I think I saw it mentioned about the מאור עינים:

אדמו"ר התארח פעם על שולחנם של בני זוג כפריים, והחל לשוחח עימם על אודות ביאת המשיח. "הבה נתפלל יחד שהמשיח יבוא", הציע לבני הזוג. כסבור היה הרבי שתפילה זכה של אנשים פשוטים יכולה לחולל נפלאות, אבל לכפרי היו תכניות אחרות. הוא נמלך ברעייתו, ולבסוף הגיב: "רֶבֶּ'ה, המשיח זה רעיון רע. יש לנו משק מכניס, עם לולי תרנגולות שמטילות ביצים, ורפת של פרות שמניבות חלב. המשיח יאלץ אותנו לעזוב הכל ויעלה אותנו לארץ ישראל. במחילה, רֶבֶּ'ה, שיעשה טובה המשיח, ויגנוז את התכניות שלו".

הרבי נדהם. הוא ניסה לשכנע את בני הזוג בדרך אחרת: "נכון", אמר להם, "יש לכם רפת ולולים ותרנגולים. אבל מפעם לפעם מגיעים הקוזקים הגויים, והם בוזזים וחומסים לכם הכל. זה סבל גדול עבורכם. נזק של ממש. כשיבוא המשיח, כבר לא יהיו קוזקים. כדאי לכם!"

שוב נמלך הכפרי בכפריתו הנבערת, ולאחר דקות ארוכות של התלחשות, חזרו השניים אל הרבי כשבפיהם החלטה גאונית: "הרבי", אמרו, "תתפלל שהמשיח ייקח את הקוזקים לארץ ישראל וישאיר אותנו כאן עם הפרות והתרנגולות. זה הכי טוב".

אח, נאנח האדמו"ר. אני חשבתי שקשה להוציא את היהודים מהגלות Ė עכשיו התברר לי שקשה שבעתיים להוציא את הגלות מתוך היהודים


Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #164 on: July 11, 2019, 11:30:11 AM »
Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישוע is also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן הספה ולחוץ.

There are several versions of the story, I think I saw it mentioned about the מאור עינים:

אדמו"ר התארח פעם על שולחנם של בני זוג כפריים, והחל לשוחח עימם על אודות ביאת המשיח. "הבה נתפלל יחד שהמשיח יבוא", הציע לבני הזוג. כסבור היה הרבי שתפילה זכה של אנשים פשוטים יכולה לחולל נפלאות, אבל לכפרי היו תכניות אחרות. הוא נמלך ברעייתו, ולבסוף הגיב: "רֶבֶּ'ה, המשיח זה רעיון רע. יש לנו משק מכניס, עם לולי תרנגולות שמטילות ביצים, ורפת של פרות שמניבות חלב. המשיח יאלץ אותנו לעזוב הכל ויעלה אותנו לארץ ישראל. במחילה, רֶבֶּ'ה, שיעשה טובה המשיח, ויגנוז את התכניות שלו".

הרבי נדהם. הוא ניסה לשכנע את בני הזוג בדרך אחרת: "נכון", אמר להם, "יש לכם רפת ולולים ותרנגולים. אבל מפעם לפעם מגיעים הקוזקים הגויים, והם בוזזים וחומסים לכם הכל. זה סבל גדול עבורכם. נזק של ממש. כשיבוא המשיח, כבר לא יהיו קוזקים. כדאי לכם!"

שוב נמלך הכפרי בכפריתו הנבערת, ולאחר דקות ארוכות של התלחשות, חזרו השניים אל הרבי כשבפיהם החלטה גאונית: "הרבי", אמרו, "תתפלל שהמשיח ייקח את הקוזקים לארץ ישראל וישאיר אותנו כאן עם הפרות והתרנגולות. זה הכי טוב".

אח, נאנח האדמו"ר. אני חשבתי שקשה להוציא את היהודים מהגלות Ė עכשיו התברר לי שקשה שבעתיים להוציא את הגלות מתוך היהודים
Why is that a litvak problem vs. everyone else?