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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 5390 times)

Offline Baruch

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #180 on: July 11, 2019, 02:39:50 PM »
Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישוע is also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן הספה ולחוץ.


This was obviously written by someone who's מצפה לישועה, he wants it so much, yet he singles out Litvaks on a nationwide problem, last I checked שנאת חנם is what's holding back משיח
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #181 on: July 11, 2019, 02:41:42 PM »
Something tells me this thread will be locked real soon

Offline Baruch

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #182 on: July 11, 2019, 02:42:42 PM »
I can't recall hearing the word Moshiach while in the litvishe elementary school I went to, other than to make fun of Chabad or the Rebbe.

I have non chabad friends who openly say that they don't beleive moshiach is a real concept. You would never hear a Lubavitcher speak like that.
Nor would you hear any believing Jew say that. Someone who says that is a Halachic Apikores.

On the trains to Auchwitz they sang Ani Maamin. It had nothing to do with Chabad. What's with this Chabad self-aggrandizing?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 02:47:40 PM by Baruch »
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #183 on: July 11, 2019, 02:50:56 PM »
Nor would you hear any believing Jew say that. Someone who says that is a Halachic Apikores.

On the trains to Auchwitz they sang Ani Maamin. It had nothing to do with Chabad. What's with this Chabad self-aggrandizing?
Nobody is self-aggrandizing, follow the thread.
I grew up hearing my classmates joke about Chabad being the closest religion to Judaism. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and paths to serving Hashem.
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #184 on: July 11, 2019, 02:53:10 PM »

I grew up hearing my classmates joke about Chabad being the closest religion to Judaism. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and paths to serving Hashem.
but that does not make them in to kofrim in moshiach, (even though it is Onoas devarim)
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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #185 on: July 11, 2019, 02:56:09 PM »
Something tells me this thread will be locked real soon
Please no as I am starting to understand a little bit.  :)
REPOST!!!!!

Offline chinagel

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #186 on: July 11, 2019, 03:06:30 PM »
Please no as I am starting to understand a little bit.  :)
It's not what you think it is. :)

Offline Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #187 on: July 11, 2019, 03:26:44 PM »
This was obviously written by someone who's מצפה לישועה, he wants it so much, yet he singles out Litvaks on a nationwide problem, last I checked שנאת חנם is what's holding back משיח

It is a nationwide problem. Itís not exclusive to the Litvaks. Chabad happens to stand out as a group that makes it into an everyday concept. The problem is not really new and pointing it out is certainly not rooted in sinas chinam.

 ר' יעקב עמדין בהקדמה לסידורו: "שמעוני אחי ורעי המתגוררים בארץ לא לנו, על אדמה טמאה, זיכרו את ה' וירושלים תעלה על לבבכם המזכירים את ה' אל דומי לכם, תמיד לא יחשו, ואל תתנו דומי לו עד יכונן ועד ישים את ירושלים פעילה. גושו גושו, חושו ואל תחשבו להשתקע בחוץ לארץ, חס ושלום לקיים íואכלה אתכם ארץ אויבכםí. זאת היתה חטאת אבותינו הראשונים שגרמו בכיה לדורות כי מאסו ארץ חמדה והיא שעמדה לנו בגלותנו המר שלא אחד עמד לכלותנו אלא בכל דור לא שקטנו ולא שלינו על צוארנו. נרדפנו יגענו ולא הונח לנו וכו' אחר ששכחנו בירת ארץ ישראל לגמרי וכו' אין איש שם על לב מבקש אהבתה דורש שלומה וטובתה ולא מצפה לראותה כמדומה לנו בהיותנו בשלווה בחוץ לארץ שכבר מצאנו ארץ ישראל וירושלים אחרת דוגמתה, על כן באו עלינו כל הרעות בשבת ישראל בארץ ספניא (גירוש ספרד) וארצות אחרות בשלוה, בכבוד גדול וכו' ושוב נתגרשו ממנה עד שלא נשאר שם ושארית לישראל בארץ ההיא. צדיק הוא ה', כי יצא מדעתם לגמרי עניין גלותם וכו' כל זאת בעטנו כי ארץ וישכחנו". שכיחת ארץ ישראל היא לא רק שורש החורבן והגלות, אלא היא השורש לצרות ישראל שבכל הדורות. רבי יעקב עמדין חוזר על זה גם בהלכות ט' באב: "וכאן הוא אומר מקום שראוי להרחיב בו הדיבור אלמלא לא היה אלא עוון זה בידינו, שאין מתאבלים על ירושלים כראוי די להאריך גלותנו והיא בעיני הסיבה הקרובה היותר גלויה עצומה וחזקה מכל ההשמדות המופלגות הגדולות הנוראות המבהילות, אשר מצאנו בגלות בכל מקומות פזורינו, על צוארנו נרדפנו, לא הונח לנו להרגיע בגויים וכו' לפי שיצא הבל הזה מליבנו בהיותנו שוקטים בארץ לא לנו, שכחנו את ירושלים וכוí"

Granted his focus is on אבילות החורבן but the two are very much connected.

Online stooges44

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #188 on: July 11, 2019, 03:32:43 PM »
Can someone bring this down to earth for the non-chabadniks here?

I'm trying to understand why this thread exploded. I tried reading the article from the op and truthfully I got lost.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #189 on: July 11, 2019, 05:23:56 PM »
Can someone bring this down to earth for the non-chabadniks here?

I'm trying to understand why this thread exploded. I tried reading the article from the op and truthfully I got lost.
If you got lost while reading it you are just fine. I would be concerned if thought any of it made sense. No worries

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #190 on: July 11, 2019, 05:26:49 PM »
Nobody is self-aggrandizing, follow the thread.
I grew up hearing my classmates joke about Chabad being the closest religion to Judaism. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and paths to serving Hashem.
Did any of the belief system you were taught in school penetrate?

Have you ever attempted to reconcile between the chabad belief system and the more traditional one?

You are unique that you appear to have had some real exposure to both. Many chabadskers are not so lucky, or are straight up BTs...

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #191 on: July 11, 2019, 06:40:24 PM »
If you got lost while reading it you are just fine. I would be concerned if thought any of it made sense. No worries
Lol

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #192 on: July 11, 2019, 07:04:05 PM »
Did any of the belief system you were taught in school penetrate?

Have you ever attempted to reconcile between the chabad belief system and the more traditional one?

You are unique that you appear to have had some real exposure to both. Many chabadskers are not so lucky, or are straight up BTs...
Chabad beliefs?
Like Ahavas yisroel, no matter what the yid looks like or practices?
Serving hashem not out of reward or punishment but as someone you want to be connected to?
Doing mitzvos with joy to make this world a dwelling place for hashem, which is how we can prepare for Moshiach?
Learning chassidus to know how to be closer to hashem and to fulfill what Moshiach promised the besht?
Traveling while trying to uplift the sparks in that place and realizing that there's a reason you're there?
Imbuing the mundane and our work with bechol derachecha dayayhu?

Yes, those all spoke to me more than the speakers HAC would bring in telling us how we were going straight to hell for all of our sins, so we better shape up ASAP :)
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Offline whYME

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #193 on: July 11, 2019, 07:05:43 PM »
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4247

I just tried reading this article but couldn't make heads or tails of it. None of it makes any sense to me. Clearly something is very wrong with whoever wrote that article and anyone who understands things in that magazine.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #194 on: July 11, 2019, 07:37:48 PM »
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4247

I just tried reading this article but couldn't make heads or tails of it. None of it makes any sense to me. Clearly something is very wrong with whoever wrote that article and anyone who understands things in that magazine.
Straw man. Nobody said it doesn make sense because they don't understand it.