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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then thatís not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasnít ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid Ö then we can stop putting on tífillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 10973 times)

Offline chbochur

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #315 on: July 21, 2019, 06:25:44 PM »

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #316 on: July 21, 2019, 09:47:22 PM »
You are way too intellectually honest to go down that route.  Let's agree to give the benefit of the doubt to Rapoport, while still finding it highly doubtful, and hence cannot be used to "prove" anything.

You accuse Rabbi Rapport of lying, based on nothing but the fact that what he said contradicts your priors, and then wrap yourself in the mantle of "intellectual honesty"...

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #317 on: July 21, 2019, 11:02:49 PM »
You accuse Rabbi Rapport of lying, based on nothing but the fact that what he said contradicts your priors, and then wrap yourself in the mantle of "intellectual honesty"...

You (along with CBC et al) are coming up with accusations, while I was the one that suggested to give the benefit of the doubt (after honestly searching for it myself and then asking others to come up with evidence), which means that despite the inability to corroborate the story (that must have been witnessed by several people, if it occurred in 1992 as told) I am not calling it out as untrue, but rather unwilling to give it much weight given the propensity of evidence indicating otherwise, and the inability to corroborate the story.

So let me understand your position, do you have no doubt in your mind as to the veracity of that story?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #318 on: July 22, 2019, 01:06:48 AM »
You (along with CBC et al) are coming up with accusations, while I was the one that suggested to give the benefit of the doubt (after honestly searching for it myself and then asking others to come up with evidence), which means that despite the inability to corroborate the story (that must have been witnessed by several people, if it occurred in 1992 as told) I am not calling it out as untrue, but rather unwilling to give it much weight given the propensity of evidence indicating otherwise, and the inability to corroborate the story.

So let me understand your position, do you have no doubt in your mind as to the veracity of that story?

Instead of channelling your inner AOC (I didn't say he's lying, I just said that the thing he said is a lie), please explain how this
If the only source they heard of it from is Rapoport, I wouldn't even bother mentioning it.
and the rest of your comments in this topic is giving Rabbi Rapaport
the benefit of the doubt

and not
calling it out as untrue
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 01:12:25 AM by zh cohen »

Online Yard sale

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #319 on: July 22, 2019, 01:41:26 AM »
So to use a quote from the Alter Rebbe:



And just like you've seen a plausible explanation to a seemingly outrageous statement, so too you should trust that other statements that seem wrong to you, do have a plausible explanation (if merely due to the fact that כל ישראל בחזקת כשרות, and especially if you see such seemingly "outrageous statements" coming from people who are obviously otherwise זהירין בקלה כבחמורה).

And now can we see an apology or retraction of sorts of your original comments about the article?

The above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article.

90% of those reading this probably donít know the meaning of ein sof, tzimtzum kipshuto, and dilo kipshuto, but if they asked their mashpiíim, Rabbanim, and manhigim, they would be told that the contention of the article-  ď it is not possible to have a generation without a living Rebbe in a physical bodyď and therefore the Rebbe is still necessarily here in a physical body- is big time kefira every bit as much a believing in the Eucharist- that the bread and wine is actually yoshkes body....

If that is not the opinion of the author of the article I would certainly modify the above but all indications are that that is the intention of the article in which case I would reiterate the above. Iím not looking to call out any group in klal Yisroel, but at the very least, the article above conveys to the masses, possessing average intelligence and reading comprehension, concepts that would be understood as kefira. That is different than a מאמר פליאה of חזל or the בעשט that the Bal Hatanya was referring to. Therefore I still do think the above comments are justified.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 02:12:30 AM by Yard sale »

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #320 on: July 22, 2019, 09:52:24 AM »
You (along with CBC et al) are coming up with accusations, while I was the one that suggested to give the benefit of the doubt (after honestly searching for it myself and then asking others to come up with evidence), which means that despite the inability to corroborate the story (that must have been witnessed by several people, if it occurred in 1992 as told) I am not calling it out as untrue, but rather unwilling to give it much weight given the propensity of evidence indicating otherwise, and the inability to corroborate the story.

So let me understand your position, do you have no doubt in your mind as to the veracity of that story?

I think you need to take a step back and read over this thread. You seem to be trying to be intellectually honest with yourself yet you have barely written anything more than ad hominem and other deflections. What do you think that looks like? Here we have a statement that, at face value, many here find to be very problematic in ikrei hadas. The closest anyone came to giving any sort of explanation was that he didn't mean that people should c"v stop wearing tefillin. Even then, there has been nothing but equivocation about whether or not you consider the face-value explanation to be problematic at all. It seems that the definition of intellectually honest that some here have is to not challenge them.

Here there is someone who made a statement that a person dying and no longer having a physical presence in the world, regardless of how special his neshama may have been, would be such a question in ikrei hadas as to c"v cause one to question the whole thing. That is the face value understanding of what he said. Being dan lkaf zchus gives 2 directions. One is that maybe the premise of this being problematic is wrong. Is this what you feel? Please give a clear cut answer. If you do feel this way then there is a disagreement that can be discussed if you are willing to discuss it. To skirt around it and equivocate is NOT honest discussion. Just because someone disagrees with that doesn't mean all that someone is unwilling to have an honest discussion.

THe second is that it was not really meant that way. THis means conceding that the premise is problematic and that he may have crossed some lines in chachomim hizaharu bidvorecho. Is this your understanding? I have asked this before but have not gotten any clear answers.

You need to understand what this looks like to anyone trying to be objective over here. The most anyone can do is try to be objective. Can that be tainted by pre-conceived notions? Of course. That is fine as long as you are willing to own up to that possibility and challenge those notions. Ad hominem attacks and equivocations will not challenge those at all.  Thing of your expectations from those who went to litvishe yeshivos and how they can be expected to reasonably think after reading this thread.
If anyone wants to continue via PM I am happy to do that as well. I think I had mentioned that before but did not check to confirm. No one has attempted that.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 09:55:26 AM by aygart »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #321 on: July 22, 2019, 10:51:59 AM »
Thing of your expectations from those who went to litvishe yeshivos and how they can be expected to reasonably think after reading this thread.
I've been to meshichist and anti-meshichist yeshivas, but I never heard anyone say something like that.

Which leaves:
shock jock

And why you won't find BM magazine in 99% of official Chabad Houses.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #322 on: July 22, 2019, 11:14:29 AM »
I've been to meshichist and anti-meshichist yeshivas, but I never heard anyone say something like that.

Which leaves:
And why you won't find BM magazine in 99% of official Chabad Houses.
This has been the most reasonable explanation, but there are those who seem to dispute that.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #323 on: September 05, 2019, 07:41:03 PM »
Itís easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועה is also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? Itís like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן הספה ולחוץ.

Seeing the following video reminded me of this post/thread

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline a mirrer

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #324 on: September 08, 2019, 08:05:22 AM »
Any update from Rapoport, or should Wikipedia (and DDF) be edited to either remove this account or seriously put it in doubt, as it seems uncorroborated.
I don't know if this story is true, however my grandfather z"l told me a story from when he was in T"T in the mid 60's, that one purim by the farbrengen a chasid said to the rebbe "lchaim melech hamashiach" and the rebbe ignored him. A few minutes later the rebbe said a whole sicha regarding when to bench Gomel on Monday and Thursday if before kaddish or after and he was machria that minhag Chabad is after kadish and he finished off that this chasid said Gomel a few weeks ago before kadish and just like he doesn't know when Chabad is noheg to say Gomel so too he doesn't know who is mashiach.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #325 on: September 08, 2019, 11:36:09 AM »
This might be a backdoor to this locked thread..  https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13790.0

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #326 on: September 08, 2019, 11:50:40 AM »
I don't know if this story is true, however my grandfather z"l told me a story from when he was in T"T in the mid 60's, that one purim by the farbrengen a chasid said to the rebbe "lchaim melech hamashiach" and the rebbe ignored him. A few minutes later the rebbe said a whole sicha regarding when to bench Gomel on Monday and Thursday if before kaddish or after and he was machria that minhag Chabad is after kadish and he finished off that this chasid said Gomel a few weeks ago before kadish and just like he doesn't know when Chabad is noheg to say Gomel so too he doesn't know who is mashiach.

Just like I am not saying that Chaim Rapoport is not saying the truth, I just have no reason to believe that whatever he stated isn't based on his clouded memory of what really transpired, so too, I am not sure that the account you heard from your grandfather z"l is accurate. At least you gave a more specific מראה מקום with additional details which help find it.

The farbrengens are nowadays available online (some in audio, some in video, some in text, or a combination of the above).

I have gone to https://www.lahak.org/templates/lahak/article_cdo/aid/2666963/jewish/-.htm and searched from 5721 to 5727 (the years from the "mid 60's" that are available online in text format) in the Purim farbrengens for the word הגומל and haven't found it.

I have also glanced through 5728 through 5729 on https://www.mafteiach.app which provides links to any format available online of the sichos, and couldn't find the topic in Purim farbrengens. When you have some time, I'd appreciate if you could find the sicha you are referring to.

It is no secret that for many years the Rebbe DIDN'T ALLOW any public direct (and possibly even indirect) reference to him as Moshiach. That clearly changed in the 1990s where the Rebbe himself allowed for publication (known in Lubavitch parlance as מוגה) of sichos which referred to himself as Moshiach.

ETA: This is probably what your grandafather z"l was referring to. (Yud Shvat 5723, s'if 38).

Audio is here: https://ashreinu.app/#/player/parentEvent~923_event~931 (The Rebbe's specific reference to the incorrect timing of הגומל which was recited apparently after the Rebbe's עליה is at about 21:00). The Rebbe DID NOT say that said person "doesn't know who moshiach is", the Rebbe DID SAY that whatever was said wasn't with his approval. Similar protests from the Rebbe were heard throughout the years UNTIL 5751, when things changed.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 12:22:42 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #327 on: September 09, 2019, 05:26:44 AM »
Just like I am not saying that Chaim Rapoport is not saying the truth, I just have no reason to believe that whatever he stated isn't based on his clouded memory of what really transpired, so too, I am not sure that the account you heard from your grandfather z"l is accurate. At least you gave a more specific מראה מקום with additional details which help find it.

The farbrengens are nowadays available online (some in audio, some in video, some in text, or a combination of the above).

I have gone to https://www.lahak.org/templates/lahak/article_cdo/aid/2666963/jewish/-.htm and searched from 5721 to 5727 (the years from the "mid 60's" that are available online in text format) in the Purim farbrengens for the word הגומל and haven't found it.

I have also glanced through 5728 through 5729 on https://www.mafteiach.app which provides links to any format available online of the sichos, and couldn't find the topic in Purim farbrengens. When you have some time, I'd appreciate if you could find the sicha you are referring to.

It is no secret that for many years the Rebbe DIDN'T ALLOW any public direct (and possibly even indirect) reference to him as Moshiach. That clearly changed in the 1990s where the Rebbe himself allowed for publication (known in Lubavitch parlance as מוגה) of sichos which referred to himself as Moshiach.

ETA: This is probably what your grandafather z"l was referring to. (Yud Shvat 5723, s'if 38).

Audio is here: https://ashreinu.app/#/player/parentEvent~923_event~931 (The Rebbe's specific reference to the incorrect timing of הגומל which was recited apparently after the Rebbe's עליה is at about 21:00). The Rebbe DID NOT say that said person "doesn't know who moshiach is", the Rebbe DID SAY that whatever was said wasn't with his approval. Similar protests from the Rebbe were heard throughout the years UNTIL 5751, when things changed.
thank you for finding it because for years I tried looking for it and couldn't find such a sicha