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ExGingi posted link to an interview (full text copied here) with Rabbi Zushe Posner (who has been an educator for over 50 years) in English version of the Beis Moshiach magazine. Rabbi Posner unique style, of demanding of himself (and others) intellectual honesty, even when it gets uncomfortable was dubbed truth shock jock by gozalim.

In response to the OP, Yard sale asserted it to be "Undiluted kefira". In response to an inquiry by ExGingi, Yard sale brought two quotes from the interview to ostensibly prove his point, but brought no argument as to why said statements would qualify as "Undiluted kefira". ExGingi asked if his claim is because he believes that Tzimtzum is to be interpreted literally (צמצום כפשוטו). To which Yard sale tried to argue that "above quote is clearly not referring to Tzimtzum dilo kipshshuto the way ein sof is extant in you, me, and my pet rabbit. It is clearly referring to the Rebbe specifically in a unique way, as is evident from the continuation of the article."

As to the second quote ostensibly claimed to be Kefira, some tried to explain what a Rebbe is, while ExGingi disclaimed all such explanations quoting from the interview "...if I could explain it, well then that’s not a Rebbe." While for the first quote ExGingi offered a simplistic English explanation saying that "Once we understand ... that עולם is a concealment of the true being, then if something (or someone) is less of a concealment, then the true being appears "more present" in it (or through it)."

At a certain point Yard sale seemed to start retreating or slightly mellow down the tone from his original statement/accusation.

At that point doodle interjected in response to ExGingi's quote that we cannot really explain the situation, positing that "Or you were plain wrong . The Rebbe is not Moshiach. He never said he was anyway . It would have been amazing if he was , but he wasn’t ... Intellectual honesty and openness of thought is important."

ExGingi being always ready for an honest intellectual challenge (though not always having the time for a timely response) fully agrees with the demand for Intellectual Honesty (later claiming that this might be the main point Rabbi Posner was actually trying to bring across in the interview) and followed up with the challenges:
  • "How well versed are you in the Rebbe's talks and writings (to be able to say that he "never said he was")?
  • How well versed are you in the topics of גאולה and משיח from Jewish sources? From Chassidus? From the Rebbe's teachings?"

doodle jumped right at the first challenge, asking whether ExGingi "say(s) the Rebbe said he's moshiach? If yes, from where?" to which ExGingi responds that he is unaware of the explicit words being ever said by the Rebbe, but claims a propensity of material authorized for publication by the Rebbe implies that it would be intellectually dishonest to say that "the Rebbe "never said he was"."

chinagel requested clarification from ExGingi whether he is "of the opinion that the Rebbe held he was moshiach? Do you still think he must be moshiach?" To which ExGingi's terse response was "yes and yes".

In an interesting twist, Yard sale himself then brought a Hebrew quote that offers the same explanation that ExGingi offered earlier to the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement.

Dan decided to interject with a link to Wikipedia (which was then quoted by Yard sale) alleging that the Rebbe clearly told a journalist that he is not Moshiach, and that said interchange is recorded. [said "proof" is quoted by Wikipedia referencing an exchange between Tomer Persiko and Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, Persiko (who isn't quoted in current thread) offers a response to Rabbi Rapoport, but rather than going that route ExGingi, being honest and open minded searched for same recording to no avail, and challenged all to come up with it. chbochur reports that he inquired with various contacts at JEMedia (which Rabbi Rapoport alleges holds such recording) and none seem to be aware of such, he then reached out to Rabbi Rapoport himself who said he needs to dig it up, we patiently await it.]

With a few more questions thrown about, to which others might have offered some responses, at a certain point ExGingi said that he is "waiting for responses to my questions/inquiries before I publicly respond to others."

After some noisy nonsense introduced by none other than our dear friend CBC (what a surprise) who was given undue credibility by aygart, Yehuda57 offered a response to the ostensibly Kefira statement brought in the interview "if the Rebbe, G-d forbid … then we can stop putting on t’fillin, chalila". Yehuda57's response has several parts, first and foremost he asks whether "those people stop putting on tefillin?" And then went on to say that "perhaps there is just a slight chance they were saying extreme things as "shock jocks" in order to make a seperate point which may or may not have been excusable in context but appears blasphemous typed out coldly 30 years later?" after some additional noise from CBC and followup by aygart, Yehuda57 added that "if you are working on a premise that it is possible a Lubavitcher could believe that any reason at all is enough to make him stop putting on tefillin, then we have nothing to discuss."

When aygart responded to that with pleasure in finding out that said premise is flawed, he asked "how is one supposed to take such a statement?" ExGingi replied with an allegation that accepting such a baffling statement כפשוטו when referring to people whom you know to be שומרי תומ"צ, indicates a lack of Yiras Shomayim. While Yehuda57 went into a little more detail and another example, stating that if on'es "baseline, like others here, is that Chabad = kefira, no amount of contextualizing will change that, to the point that you could absurdly say Chabad hides their true beliefs."

After some more noise, the בעל אכסניא offered his regular english explanation of the עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף statement, while separately making disparaging comments about the magazine where it was quoted. A third time must have been the charm, along with a disparaging comment about the source by Dan, and seemingly נחה דעתו of R' Yard sale.

After some additional back and forth noise regarding various "factions" within Lubavitch, Yard sale gave the thread an interesting turn, acknowledging that "It’s easy to smugly look down on others but the  Litvaks have their own problems; last I checked צפיה לישועהis also one of the י״ג עיקרים yet few of them take moshiach seriously. Sure we give lip service to the idea multiple times a day, but who is really interested in giving up all the good stuff we have here? It’s like some foreign concept that most of us espouse  מן השפה ולחוץ." Dan made some serious allegations about how he heard friends in non-Chabad school talking and from there discussion went OT about school vs home education, including proper attitude towards emphasis of שכר ועונש and attitude towards non-Jews.
« Last edited by ExGingi on July 14, 2019, 05:56:55 PM »

Author Topic: BM Magazine Articles  (Read 54678 times)

Offline chevron

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #340 on: December 31, 2019, 12:59:11 AM »
Always tag the guy you're definitely done engaging with

Yep, especially a thread as juicy as this

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #341 on: August 24, 2023, 04:25:39 PM »
Heavens, can’t believe I never saw this thread before! Good stuff

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #342 on: August 24, 2023, 04:30:31 PM »
To clarify for the non Lubavitchers the whole צמצום כפשוטו business that gets thrown around about these topics, its helpful to know that virtually everyone outside of Chabad does not believe that צמצום כפשוטו is a viable Jewish belief, or that the Gra ever meant anything of the sort ח״ו.

Offline gozalim

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #343 on: August 24, 2023, 05:51:11 PM »
To clarify for the non Lubavitchers the whole צמצום כפשוטו business that gets thrown around about these topics, its helpful to know that virtually everyone outside of Chabad does not believe that צמצום כפשוטו is a viable Jewish belief, or that the Gra ever meant anything of the sort ח״ו.
without searching the thread, has this letter https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/1/11.htm not been referenced here yet?

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #344 on: August 24, 2023, 05:56:41 PM »
without searching the thread, has this letter https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/1/11.htm not been referenced here yet?
Nope but it was in regard to that that it’s important to clarify to non Lubavitchers
virtually everyone outside of Chabad does not believe that צמצום כפשוטו is a viable Jewish belief, or that the Gra ever meant anything of the sort ח״ו.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 06:00:24 PM by imayid2 »

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #345 on: August 24, 2023, 05:58:37 PM »
without searching the thread, has this letter https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/1/11.htm not been referenced here yet?

Haven't seen it before, but יחי is acknowledged right in the beginning of the letter.  ;)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #346 on: August 24, 2023, 06:36:05 PM »
oh boy.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zh cohen

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #347 on: August 24, 2023, 06:43:44 PM »
without searching the thread, has this letter https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/1/11.htm not been referenced here yet?

The אחד ממכיריו mentioned in this letter, on whose behalf Rabbi Dubov asked this question to the Rebbe was Rav Dessler.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #348 on: August 25, 2023, 07:45:52 AM »
chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/1/11.htm
Note 537




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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #349 on: August 25, 2023, 03:28:35 PM »


I don't know who this distinguished author is, nor did I see what his "Acceptable Position" is. But I posted today's Hayom Yom for perspective.

This guy has some arrogance (and unfortunately, by extension, the person who brought this to the table) to claim to know better than the Rebbe and beyond.

Regardless of what a Rebbe is, even בעיני בשר on a scholarly level, do you even have any הוה אמינא that this individual might be better versed and possess better understanding than the Rebbe in Kaballah or Chassidus?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #350 on: August 25, 2023, 03:43:04 PM »


I don't know who this distinguished author is, nor did I see what his "Acceptable Position" is. But I posted today's Hayom Yom for perspective.

This guy has some arrogance (and unfortunately, by extension, the person who brought this to the table) to claim to know better than the Rebbe and beyond.

Regardless of what a Rebbe is, even בעיני בשר on a scholarly level, do you even have any הוה אמינא that this individual might be better versed and possess better understanding than the Rebbe in Kaballah or Chassidus?
I actually thought it was very respectful, so there.

No need to get stuck on this specific individual, there are a plethora of people out there who have the audacity to think they know better that the Rebbe.

See here for example

He expounds on it at length in his sforim.

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #351 on: August 25, 2023, 03:57:43 PM »
@Philosophypsych you seem to have spent some time on this subject. Would you say the Lubavitcher Rebbes approach on the classification of the shitos here is mainstream, or is he an outlier?

Offline Philosophypsych

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Re: BM Magazine Articles
« Reply #352 on: August 25, 2023, 04:31:16 PM »
This whole notion of classifying the shitos as if there's 4 diff approaches definitely stems from him, and I understand some may feel slighted by his conclusions that the lubavitcher Rabbi was wrong.
HOWEVER, I would suggest those people first delve into the subject in depth, as he is not the one making this up, Rav Dessler already insists on this, and it's not just the lubavitcher Rabbi this is really true about the entire machlokes (hard to believe, I know!!) going back 400 years.
And his being wrong has nothing to do with him misunderstanding anything, it's simply a result of them not knowing at the time that the safer מצרף העבודה is one big forgery, and it's based off that safer that he came to some of his conclusions...Also check out the safer צמצום ומציאות he concludes the same, there's no argument whatsoever...you won't find the words צמצום כפשוטו anywhere in the writings of the Gra in fact he explicitly says it's only in the Malchus of the Ohr Ain Sof, which is what the Baal Hatnya holds as well as the Nefesh Hachaim.