Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 9796 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #105 on: July 12, 2019, 02:47:18 PM »
He would prob be practicing "do you want fries with that", as many people who had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college.
Really? I know a ton of people like that and not one practices that. I guess you get out more than me.  :P
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #106 on: July 12, 2019, 02:49:57 PM »
I didn't miss any point and just asked a simple question.

It is great that the Talmud teaches all those different things. Lets just pick a subject, math. Do you believe you can learn as much about math from the Talmud as from a HS math class?

On a high school level of Talmud vs. high school level advanced math - no.

However:

1) It's easier to teach math later on than it is to teach critical thinking and thoughtful analysis. Furthermore, most colleges have college classes that cover both basic high school math as well as more advanced high school math. This is an important point in 2 ways - it shows that many students outside the yeshiva world are entering college without a firm grasp of these concepts, and it also shows that even if one did not get a strong math education prior to college, that need not hold them back.

2) A solid foundation of basic math, including fractions, is more important for most people than the advanced math of high school. I will accept that the problem with this perspective is that a small number of students excel at more advanced math, and without the exposure to it, there's no way for them to know if they have an aptitude for productive and lucrative careers in those fields. While this exposure can come later, I can see the advantage of earlier exposure.

Things like math and reading aren't just a bunch of facts you can gauge on a standardized test. They're skills that need practice.

Skills that need practice require homework, studying, and then you gauge how well the students have acquired those skills. Generally, the accepted way to do so is on a standardized test of some kind, although as a former teacher I can debate that as well.

Recommending more hours of classes despite students demonstrating proficiency in a subject seems like a waste of time.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #107 on: July 12, 2019, 02:58:01 PM »
I didn't miss any point and just asked a simple question.

It is great that the Talmud teaches all those different things. Lets just pick a subject, math. Do you believe you can learn as much about math from the Talmud as from a HS math class?

... depends on which math course.  Obviously the Talmud isn't going to replace a calculus textbook. But for Discrete mathematics - 100%.  The talmud deals with sets, logic, exceptions and rules. As a 20+ year professional software developer, my talmudic education influenced the development of my programming skills far more than any math class I took.

Let's pick another 3 subjects - History, English and 'Critical thinking/Critical Literacy'. In all 3 of those subjects, while we do cover literature both factual and fictional, the goal is to develop the skills needed to ultimately be able to analyze information, and use that information to make formal arguments. The Talmud does that without beating around the bush. Those subjects also get students to speak publicly and present publicly and to that end, many yeshivas have students give a dvar torah, or a prepared class on a topic that they've researched.

I remember meeting with the advisor for my minor - Technical Writing - and going through my required course list. When we got to critical thinking, she asks me if I'd ever studied the talmud? I told her about 9 years to that point. She exempted me on the spot.



Offline chinagel

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #108 on: July 12, 2019, 02:58:22 PM »
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?
אין מביאין ראיה מדן

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2019, 03:00:02 PM »
I didn't miss any point and just asked a simple question.

It is great that the Talmud teaches all those different things. Lets just pick a subject, math. Do you believe you can learn as much about math from the Talmud as from a HS math class?
How much of the actual subject matter of HS math is actually used by most people?
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline Dan

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2019, 03:01:13 PM »
What if you had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college. You still think you would be posting in JS?  :P
Maybe I'd be a consultant traveling every week. Would have been my loss :)
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2019, 03:07:17 PM »
How much of the actual subject matter of HS math is actually used by most people?
HS math is pretty basic so I would hope most use it.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #112 on: July 12, 2019, 03:11:19 PM »
HS math is pretty basic so I would hope most use it.
I have never used trigonometry since high school. I have never done a geometry proof since high school. What percentage of the country do you think has?
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2019, 03:17:00 PM »
I have never used trigonometry since high school. I have never done a geometry proof since high school. What percentage of the country do you think has?
What part of the country can figure out a 15% tip without a calc/phone? Maybe they should have paid attention in math class.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Dan

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #114 on: July 12, 2019, 03:18:27 PM »
What part of the country can figure out a 15% tip without a calc/phone? Maybe they should have paid attention in math class.
That's 3rd grade math.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #115 on: July 12, 2019, 03:22:07 PM »
What part of the country can figure out a 15% tip without a calc/phone? Maybe they should have paid attention in math class.
This is a diversion. Who even came across doing it? Even some more mathematical portions of statistics and geometry the only place I came across an opportunity to use them was during Talmudic studies. And yes every single subject of HS math is touched upon in Talmudic studies, but not everyone will necessarily get to all of those places.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2019, 03:25:11 PM »
That's 3rd grade math.
Maybe they should have paid attention in math class.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2019, 03:33:24 PM »
How much of the actual subject matter of HS math is actually used by most people?

Now you're debating the curriculum. These things matter for college readiness:

- Pre-law is going to require reading and writing
- Engineering is going to require advanced math and physics
- Pre-med is going to require background in bio and chem

Most people need some of the stuff they learn in H.S. even if few people need all of it.

Especially if so many people are going to learn for a few years post-high school and do college in their mid/late 20s, it would be very helpful for them to be able to place out of classes in college and have an easier path to a degree/grad school. It would help young families reach higher income brackets faster without compromising time learning. High school seems like a great place to acquire this background.


Online zh cohen

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #118 on: July 12, 2019, 03:35:43 PM »
The states only interest in education is in ensuring that kids get the knowledge and skills required to be functioning adults in society. To do this, they should look at results.

The elephant in the room is the fact that they can't do that because it would serve as an indictment of the public school system that's failing in it's basic mandate.

Online shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #119 on: July 12, 2019, 03:37:18 PM »
The states only interest in education is in ensuring that kids get the knowledge and skills required to be functioning adults in society. To do this, they should look at results.

The elephant in the room is the fact that they can't do that because it would serve as an indictment of the public school system that's failing in it's basic mandate.
Kids coming out of chassidishe schos do not have these skills. Anyone who left that community (and therefore needs to function in 'normal' society) will tell you that.