Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 12825 times)

Online aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2019, 03:39:17 PM »
Kids coming out of chassidishe schos do not have these skills. Anyone who left that community (and therefore needs to function in 'normal' society) will tell you that.
Keep in mind that many and very possibly most of those who left the community were not those who excelled in their studies of any sort and are likely not to have been prepared no matter which school they attended.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #121 on: July 12, 2019, 03:40:51 PM »
Keep in mind that many and very possibly most of those who left the community were not those who excelled in their studies of any sort and are likely not to have been prepared no matter which school they attended.
[citation needed]

Many of them eventually get degrees so they probably are more academically capable than you give them credit for.

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Offline zh cohen

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #123 on: July 12, 2019, 03:53:55 PM »
Kids coming out of chassidishe schos do not have these skills. Anyone who left that community (and therefore needs to function in 'normal' society) will tell you that.

So deal with that. These rules don't and certainly not in the least intrusive way.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #124 on: July 12, 2019, 03:58:03 PM »
So deal with that. These rules don't and certainly not in the least intrusive way.
Mandating that yeshivas offer substantially equivalent secular studies is a way of dealing with it. They think length of time spent in instruction is the best way to do that.

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #125 on: July 12, 2019, 04:07:01 PM »
[citation needed]

Many of them eventually get degrees so they probably are more academically capable than you give them credit for.
I personally have seen enough to be considered many.

Capable? Who spoke about their capabilities? I am sure they are very capable.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zh cohen

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #126 on: July 12, 2019, 04:24:14 PM »
Mandating that yeshivas offer substantially equivalent secular studies is a way of dealing with it. They think length of time spent in instruction is the best way to do that.

The substantially equivalency standard has been the law for a long time. The state tried to claim that these guidelines are just a clarification on the definition if "substantially equivalent" and the court rejected that argument.

The problems are of enforcement and these rules don't fix that

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2019, 04:35:39 PM »
The substantially equivalency standard has been the law for a long time. The state tried to claim that these guidelines are just a clarification on the definition if "substantially equivalent" and the court rejected that argument.

The problems are of enforcement and these rules don't fix that
The court rejected who has the authority to make the change, not the concept of the change.


Offline zh cohen

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2019, 04:46:39 PM »
The court rejected who has the authority to make the change, not the concept of the change.

The state claimed that these rules were not a change, but a clarification of the existing standard (which is "substantially equivalent"). The court ruled that this is a change and therefore had to go through the regulatory process, but did not address the question of whether the rules themselves are legal.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2019, 12:47:29 PM »
Having talked about this right before shabbos, this topic boiled over into my shabbos meal conversations - a couple of more observations, but the general gist - it should be about quality vs quantity, and one of the best ways to ensure that is via testing.

Some additional thoughts:
- The 4.5 hours a day will be difficult to reach for most Jewish schools (even modern orthodox and non-frum day schools that have a 50/50 split of the time) - even if you can include Hebrew Language instruction as Foreign language, and include gemara "soft skills" in the 4.5 hours.

- There are plenty of Yeshivas that have limited secular education, but focus on quality, enabling their students to go on to some form of college, and/or professional schools.

- While we may that schools will be 'teaching to the test' - these are still types of skills that these students need, and will benefit from.

Offline chinagel

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2019, 01:23:54 PM »
Having talked about this right before shabbos, this topic boiled over into my shabbos meal conversations - a couple of more observations, but the general gist - it should be about quality vs quantity, and one of the best ways to ensure that is via testing.

Some additional thoughts:
- The 4.5 hours a day will be difficult to reach for most Jewish schools (even modern orthodox and non-frum day schools that have a 50/50 split of the time) - even if you can include Hebrew Language instruction as Foreign language, and include gemara "soft skills" in the 4.5 hours.

- There are plenty of Yeshivas that have limited secular education, but focus on quality, enabling their students to go on to some form of college, and/or professional schools.

- While we may that schools will be 'teaching to the test' - these are still types of skills that these students need, and will benefit from.
If it's about quality they're going to need to defund the public schools.

Offline gingyguy

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 01:44:36 PM by gingyguy »
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2019, 01:41:30 PM »
If it's about quality they're going to need to defund the public schools.

That all depends where you live :)

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2019, 01:44:30 PM »
We all know that the government really has no  interest in this altogether but were forced to act when confronted with the facts that some boy’s schools do not teach any secular studies. Our focus should be on those schools that are attracting this unwanted attention rather than fighting on their behalf.
[/b]

This is the biggest issue imo. Our organizations seem to be accommodating to the lowest common denominator, so effectively they are defending a cause (i.e. close to zero secular studies) that their core constituents don't agree with.

Obviously, at the point we are now, basically all yeshivas are under attack, especially since most have a four day week for secular studies.

It seems to me that a tiny percentage of yeshivas are dragging the entire system through this, and if those yeshivas would've shaped up 5 years ago when the issue first came up, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Offline chinagel

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Offline gingyguy

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2019, 02:02:31 PM »
So it's over?
i wonder if thats how it works
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #136 on: July 15, 2019, 02:07:25 PM »
i wonder if thats how it works
She had a special רשעות. We'll see if her replacement has the same fighting attitude.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #137 on: July 15, 2019, 02:33:26 PM »
[/b]

This is the biggest issue imo. Our organizations seem to be accommodating to the lowest common denominator, so effectively they are defending a cause (i.e. close to zero secular studies) that their core constituents don't agree with.

Obviously, at the point we are now, basically all yeshivas are under attack, especially since most have a four day week for secular studies.

It seems to me that a tiny percentage of yeshivas are dragging the entire system through this, and if those yeshivas would've shaped up 5 years ago when the issue first came up, we wouldn't be where we are today.

I think therein lies the problem. In broader strokes is the bigger question here do we defend the rights of private schools to control their curricula. Or do we attack the handful of Yeshivas that are giving the rest a bad name?

I think it is much easier of Yeshivas of disparate hashkafas to band together (as they have, along with non-sectarian and other faiths' private schools) to fight government intervention in their curriculum than it is to get them to band together to root out the bad apples.

What leverage do they have? Do we really think that getting Torah Vodas  and Yeshiva of Flatbush and their hashkafic buddies together to tell Bobov to teach more Secular studies that it will actually make an impact?

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #138 on: July 15, 2019, 03:00:08 PM »
I think therein lies the problem. In broader strokes is the bigger question here do we defend the rights of private schools to control their curricula. Or do we attack the handful of Yeshivas that are giving the rest a bad name?

I think it is much easier of Yeshivas of disparate hashkafas to band together (as they have, along with non-sectarian and other faiths' private schools) to fight government intervention in their curriculum than it is to get them to band together to root out the bad apples.

What leverage do they have? Do we really think that getting Torah Vodas  and Yeshiva of Flatbush and their hashkafic buddies together to tell Bobov to teach more Secular studies that it will actually make an impact?

I see your point, and it's hard to disagree.

But 5 years ago I wouldn't call it attacking. This whole issue was going on well before any lawsuits were filed, yaffed was founded more than 5 years ago. The Chasidim could've been told that the government will come after you if you don't start teaching something minimal. Instead, the response was to portray the whole thing as an attack on all yeshivas, which it's wasn't, until a year ago.

But all that is rehashing what was. In the present, it is an attack on all yeshivas, so the options are much more limited, and banding together is probably the best option.

Offline stooges44

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2019, 01:37:09 PM »
Dear Parents, Grandparents, Alumni and Friends:

As we wrote in our email last week, it is urgent that you comment (if you have not already) to the New York State Board of Regents about the proposed education regulations, irrespective of the Commissioner's resignation.

We are including a new, informative message from Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, executive vice president of Agudath Israel of America:


Dear Friend,
 
You may have heard that the New York State Education Department recently published proposed Regulations about “substantial equivalency of instruction” required for students attending nonpublic schools.

This can have severe ramifications for yeshivos and day schools across the board in NYS, so we wanted to provide some answers to common questions we are receiving about this serious development.
 
Q: How might the proposed regulations affect my child’s yeshiva?
A: The Regulations, on their face, may require schools to make major adjustments to their limudei kodesh and secular programming.

For example, the proposed regulations specify 1) the number of required hours – as many as 4-5 hours per day, depending on grade level; 2) more than 12 required subjects, including, at the lower elementary level, consumer and family science, visual arts, theater, media arts, career development, occupational studies, etc.; 3) assessment of teachers to an undefined standard.

Results, grades, competencies, graduation rates, or other factors regarding equivalency to public schools are not taken into account for these purposes.

To view the proposed Regulation click here.
 
Q: Didn’t the court already strike down the SED Guidelines 3 months ago?
A: Yes, those Guidelines were thrown out by the NY State Supreme Court in response to lawsuits brought by Agudath Israel, PEARLS, Torah Umesorah, and other groups. However, the court struck down the Guidelines because the State Education Department failed to comply with the technical requirements for new rulemaking. By publishing its “proposed Regulations” in the NYS Register, SED has now started an “official” process in compliance with those requirements.
 
Q: How do the new proposed Regulations differ from the previous Guidelines??
A: The new Regulations are substantially identical to the previous Guidelines.
 
Q: What happens now?
A: There is a sixty day public comment period (until September 2) when individuals can voice their concerns regarding these proposed regulations. At the conclusion of the process, the Regulations come before the Board of Regents for a vote, expected this fall.

 Q: I heard that State Education Commissioner Elia resigned on Monday. Does that mean this is over?
A: No. The impact of Commissioner's Elia's resignation on this issue is still to be determined, but the proposed Regulations have already been published and the comment period is in place.
 
Q: What is being done to fight for parents who choose, and sacrifice dearly, for their children to attend yeshivos?
A: The Agudah has been working with organizations in the community - PEARLS and Torah Umesorah, among others - to oppose the newest incarnation of the state's attempt to control yeshivos. It should be noted that the Catholic and NYSAIS independent schools (which, together with Jewish schools, form the majority of nonpublic schools in NYS) also strongly oppose these regulations.
 
Q: Is there anything I can do?
A: Yes! SED is required, by law, to read comments submitted. While many have previously signed petitions, which is important, these comments are required to be read by law. We have set up a system, where, with just a few clicks, you can voice your opinion on this critical matter.


Q: I live in Chicago, but the overreach of these regulations concerns me. May I register my comment?
A: The regulations do not restrict comments to NYS residents.
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