AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY

[yitzgar]

I'm willing to take more than a minute, but I would argue that all schools should be required to meet certain standards, which this letter seems to oppose.

I might have once bought the argument that yeshivas teach "complex legal and moral texts, which require textual analysis, logical reasoning, and critical thinking..." but in recent years we've seen many of those with significant talmud study lack the ability to apply critical thinking to other areas of life.

Inability to apply critical thinking to other areas in life applies to many with education that is up to those standards as well. It's called lack of seichel, which can't be taught in school. I don't see how requiring certain secular studies will help.
Also, should parents be able to make that decision? Or should you be making the decision for them?

[nbfromnj]

I'm willing to take more than a minute, but I would argue that all schools should be required to meet certain standards, which this letter seems to oppose.

I might have once bought the argument that yeshivas teach "complex legal and moral texts, which require textual analysis, logical reasoning, and critical thinking..." but in recent years we've seen many of those with significant talmud study lack the ability to apply critical thinking to other areas of life.

do you think that gov't regulated curriculums would help that? are public school graduates role models for applying critical thinking to other areas of life?

[Yehuda57]

I'm willing to take more than a minute, but I would argue that all schools should be required to meet certain standards, which this letter seems to oppose.

Who gets to decide what the minimum standards are?

I might have once bought the argument that yeshivas teach "complex legal and moral texts, which require textual analysis, logical reasoning, and critical thinking..." but in recent years we've seen many of those with significant talmud study lack the ability to apply critical thinking to other areas of life.

And on average, public school graduates are faring much better in regard to applying whatever critical thinking they learned?

I don't think this issue is that controversial. What amount, if any, secular studies should be taught has been argued forever, and will continue to be argued by our communities. But it's not for the state to decide that if I choose a school that teaches anything less than what they claim is needed that I can be arrested for truancy

[aygart]

I'm willing to take more than a minute, but I would argue that all schools should be required to meet certain standards, which this letter seems to oppose.

I might have once bought the argument that yeshivas teach "complex legal and moral texts, which require textual analysis, logical reasoning, and critical thinking..." but in recent years we've seen many of those with significant talmud study lack the ability to apply critical thinking to other areas of life.

Who should decide how to teach critical thinking? Somewhere who says that if you don't think men can be pregnant you are a bigot?

[biobook]

do you think that gov't regulated curriculums would help that? are public school graduates role models for applying critical thinking to other areas of life?

Inability to apply critical thinking to other areas in life applies to many with education that is up to those standards as well.

As with any skill, some do better than others.  The fact that many who receive an education do not apply what they've learned should not absolve us from providing an education in the first place.

It's called lack of seichel, which can't be taught in school. I don't see how requiring certain secular studies will help.

Secular studies provide that basic information that one needs before even applying thinking skills.  It also provides experience in thinking critically about topics that are apparently not covered in some yeshivas.
[/quote]

Also, should parents be able to make that decision? Or should you be making the decision for them?

We as a society have decided that society benefits from having children who meet certain standards of education, rather than having each parent decide how much or how little their child needs to know.  Parents should have input, but there should still be some minimal standard that the child has to meet.

[biobook]

do you think that gov't regulated curriculums would help that?

It's possible.  Worth a try, no?

are public school graduates role models for applying critical thinking to other areas of life?

Public schools and private schools vary in different regions throughout the state.  Some certainly do provide a top-notch education. 

[nbfromnj]

It's possible.  Worth a try, no?

definitely not if the ones making the regulations are of the below sort

Somewhere who says that if you don't think men can be pregnant you are a bigot?

Public schools and private schools vary in different regions throughout the state.  Some certainly do provide a top-notch education.

as do some yeshivas

[biobook]

Who gets to decide what the minimum standards are?

With any society-wide standards we have some centralized group with expertise in that area.  Depts of transportation, for safety standards on the roads.  Depts of health, for public health issues.  Depts of education, for standards of education. The Board of Education allows and encourages input from parents and others.

And on average, public school graduates are faring much better in regard to applying whatever critical thinking they learned?

I don't know that there have been any studies directly comparing public school graduates to graduates of yeshivas that have no secular education.

. But it's not for the state to decide that if I choose a school that teaches anything less than what they claim is needed that I can be arrested for truancy

But the state can decide to intervene if a parent provides less nutrition or less health care than the state claims is necessary.  You have a lot of leeway, but still need to meet certain minimal standards.

[gozalim]

I'm willing to take more than a minute, but I would argue that all schools should be required to meet certain standards, which this letter seems to oppose.

Perhaps they should.
but the Government shouldn't be the one empowered to enforce that

[aygart]

It's possible.  Worth a try, no?

There is no such thing as "trying it out".

[Yehuda57]

It's possible.  Worth a try, no?
Public schools and private schools vary in different regions throughout the state.  Some certainly do provide a top-notch education.

You realize that under the proposed guidelines some of the top notch Modern Orthodox schools (talking about secular studies) would fail to meet some of these guidelines, and children attending them would be considered truant?

[gozalim]

It's possible.  Worth a try, no?

Empower a local government official with something, you will NEVER get it relinquished.

and the breadth of allowed input from unrelated parties being suggested is staggering, as wall as the latitude in input

[dasmo801]

I'm willing to take more than a minute, but I would argue that all schools should be required to meet certain standards, which this letter seems to oppose.

I might have once bought the argument that yeshivas teach "complex legal and moral texts, which require textual analysis, logical reasoning, and critical thinking..." but in recent years we've seen many of those with significant talmud study lack the ability to apply critical thinking to other areas of life.

I absolutely agree in theory that schools should be required to meet certain standards, however, I wouldn't trust the state to decide what those standards should be. And if today we agree with wherever they draw that line, what's to say that next year, when society lurched a little more towards the abyss, we would still agree. I would trust parents and the free market to make better decisions for our own children. 

[biobook]

definitely not if the ones making the regulations are of the below sort

If the concern is that standards of education will include the statement that men can become pregnant, then accept all the other standards and don't include this statement.  This hardly seems like a significant justification for eliminating all secular studies from some yeshiva high schools.

as do some yeshivas

I agree, some yeshivas provide a top-notch education, meeting the standards set by the state.  But the argument being made by Agudah is that yeshivas should not be held to any standards other than the ones that each individual school wants to impose.

[aygart]

If the concern is that standards of education will include the statement that men can become pregnant, then accept all the other standards and don't include this statement.  This hardly seems like a significant justification for eliminating all secular studies from some yeshiva high schools.

The issue here is the state deciding on standards and getting involved and not about whether or not secular studies should be taught. Once they get to make decisions they can decide that too.

[biobook]

Perhaps they should.
but the Government shouldn't be the one empowered to enforce that

That's exactly what we have a government for, to enforce regulations that maintain a well-functioning society.  We wouldn't want each individual resident to enforce the traffic laws on his street, or each individual restaurant owner to enforce food safety regulations.  We need an external body that represents the will of the people as a group, rather than leaving this up to individuals. 

[Yehuda57]

With any society-wide standards we have some centralized group with expertise in that area.  Depts of transportation, for safety standards on the roads.  Depts of health, for public health issues.  Depts of education, for standards of education. The Board of Education allows and encourages input from parents and others.
I don't know that there have been any studies directly comparing public school graduates to graduates of yeshivas that have no secular education.
But the state can decide to intervene if a parent provides less nutrition or less health care than the state claims is necessary.  You have a lot of leeway, but still need to meet certain minimal standards.

1) IINM, one of the aspects of these regulations is that anyone can lodge a complaint, not necessarily the BOE, a parent or a student. Anyone.
2) I have the right to be as unhealthy as I want or drive any vehicle any way on my ranch. I can't when it affects you. If you want to so drastically curtail the rights of so many thousands of religious citizens, sure the BOE should be able to point at their vigorous studies that show that yeshivah graduates are placing an undue burden on society more than their counterparts who graduated public school with the minimum standards proposed. They can't and won't be able to do that because it is simply not true by any measure.

Yes, the government can intervene if my child is undernourished, but they cannot if they don't approve of the diet I use to achieve proper nourishment. And the numerous hair raising stories of CPS taking children away from parents based on no evidence at all of wrongdoing are a chilling reminder that we ought to think twice, three times, and then another 50 times before giving government any power to intervene on children's behalf.

[Yehuda57]

That's exactly what we have a government for, to enforce regulations that maintain a well-functioning society.  We wouldn't want each individual resident to enforce the traffic laws on his street, or each individual restaurant owner to enforce food safety regulations.  We need an external body that represents the will of the people as a group, rather than leaving this up to individuals.

The FDA is absolutely fabulous invention to ensure we don't die from bacteria, viruses and whatnot contaminating our food. Yet they just cause a potentially deadly shortage of baby formula. You win some you lose some I guess?

[gozalim]

I think @biobook would love if there was an internal body within the Jewish community to maintain standards. Agudah perhaps?

IINM there exists a body of that sort to accredit Yeshivos (re Pell grants and other such). If oversight were needed, that would be the safer way to do it.

but that's not what Mos(t)er and Abby Stein are looking for

[biobook]

There is no such thing as "trying it out".

The issue here is the state deciding on standards and getting involved and not about whether or not secular studies should be taught. Once they get to make decisions they can decide that too.

But it's been tried already, and it worked.  I (and possibly you) attended high schools where the students took NYS regents exams to get their high school degree.  The state set the standards, and we met them.  I suspect that this true for at least some of the Agudah askanim as well.  The state has been involved in setting standards for decades, this is nothing new.