AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY

[aygart]

That's exactly what we have a government for, to enforce regulations that maintain a well-functioning society.  We wouldn't want each individual resident to enforce the traffic laws on his street, or each individual restaurant owner to enforce food safety regulations.  We need an external body that represents the will of the people as a group, rather than leaving this up to individuals. 

Okay, so if the will of the people is to teach that men should be pregnant this should be enforced? I am not understanding how you feel we can accept them become decision makers and then pick and choose which decisions to accept. How will that work? Now they can decide that it is important to teach triginometry to have a functioning society, but tomorrow they can decide that gender fluidity must be taught.

[biobook]

You realize that under the proposed guidelines some of the top notch Modern Orthodox schools (talking about secular studies) would fail to meet some of these guidelines, and children attending them would be considered truant?

No, I don't realize that.  Can you expand on that?  Example?

[aygart]

But it's been tried already, and it worked.  I (and possibly you) attended high schools where the students took NYS regents exams to get their high school degree.  The state set the standards, and we met them.  I suspect that this true for at least some of the Agudah askanim as well.  The state has been involved in setting standards for decades, this is nothing new.

No this has not been tried. The curriculum was kept to voluntarily. The school has the ability to decide they are no longer offering regents biology classes if biology suddenly starts to include things it did not until now. You are advocating taking this choice away from them.

[nbfromnj]

But it's been tried already, and it worked.  I (and possibly you) attended high schools where the students took NYS regents exams to get their high school degree.  The state set the standards, and we met them.  I suspect that this true for at least some of the Agudah askanim as well.  The state has been involved in setting standards for decades, this is nothing new.

Which part worked? That students who took the regents have better critical thinking skills in real life or that there were never issues with the state regulated curriculum?

[AsherO]

I'm willing to take more than a minute, but I would argue that all schools should be required to meet certain standards, which this letter seems to oppose.

I might have once bought the argument that yeshivas teach "complex legal and moral texts, which require textual analysis, logical reasoning, and critical thinking..." but in recent years we've seen many of those with significant talmud study lack the ability to apply critical thinking to other areas of life.

Even if you’re right, I wouldn’t trust our government to give critical thinking skills to those people you saw lacking them (or their equivalent current students)

[aygart]

If the concern is that standards of education will include the statement that men can become pregnant, then accept all the other standards and don't include this statement.  This hardly seems like a significant justification for eliminating all secular studies from some yeshiva high schools.

How is someone who believes that anyone who disagrees about men being pregnant is a bigot the right person to promote critical thinking of all things?

[biobook]

I absolutely agree in theory that schools should be required to meet certain standards, however, I wouldn't trust the state to decide what those standards should be.

"The state" in this case is a group of people with some sort of expertise to work in the field of education.  If you disagree with the standards they set, you can let them know in writing, protests, social media, etc, and try to convince them to change the standards.  Just like you'd protest if you disagreed with the standards set for public health, driving, gun-carrying, etc.  You wouldn't want to eliminate the state's ability to set those regulations, just because you happen to disagree with some of them. 

And if today we agree with wherever they draw that line, what's to say that next year, when society lurched a little more towards the abyss, we would still agree. 

The protest next year.  You're arguing that we should have no society-wide regulations because we can't predict the future.  Let's have the regulations we think are good this year, and deal with next year when it arrives.

I would trust parents and the free market to make better decisions for our own children.

Society has decided to NOT treat education as a commodity that only some are abile to attain, but rather to ensure that all children have the benefit of receiving at least some education. 

[aygart]

"The state" in this case is a group of people with some sort of expertise to work in the field of education.  If you disagree with the standards they set, you can let them know in writing, protests, social media, etc, and try to convince them to change the standards.  Just like you'd protest if you disagreed with the standards set for public health, driving, gun-carrying, etc.  You wouldn't want to eliminate the state's ability to set those regulations, just because you happen to disagree with some of them. 
The protest next year.  You're arguing that we should have no society-wide regulations because we can't predict the future.  Let's have the regulations we think are good this year, and deal with next year when it arrives.
Society has decided to NOT treat education as a commodity that only some are abile to attain, but rather to ensure that all children have the benefit of receiving at least some education. 

Just the opposite. It is because the future is VERY predictable. By the time anyone writes letters or protests those standards are already there and if they consider the request to not be forced to teach that men can be pregnant (just an example) to be bigoted then why would they agree to that?

[drosenberg88429]

"The state" in this case is a group of people with some sort of expertise to work in the field of education.  If you disagree with the standards they set, you can let them know in writing, protests, social media, etc, and try to convince them to change the standards.  Just like you'd protest if you disagreed with the standards set for public health, driving, gun-carrying, etc.  You wouldn't want to eliminate the state's ability to set those regulations, just because you happen to disagree with some of them. 

These all pose a clear and present danger to others and a menace to society of not regulated. Educational standards are at worst a danger to one's self, and are a matter of personal choice. It's more analogous to mandatory preemptive medical intervention for children (even mandatory vaccinations are not comparable, being as there is a highly debatable argument over there that an unvaccinated child endangers others by posing a risk of being a carrier of contagious diseases). In addition, one would have to evidence severe and large scale harm caused to the children due to the gaps in the educational system. We have no such evidence that the products of the public school system do quantitatively substantially better than the unregulated private school graduates. I don't see basis for regulation at all in this case.

[Yehuda57]

Society has decided to NOT treat education as a commodity that only some are abile to attain, but rather to ensure that all children have the benefit of receiving at least some education.

It's ludicrous to come down on yeshivas for children "not receiving at least some education." Yeshivah kids are being educated. I'd venture a guess that 100% of yeshivah students are educated more than every public school student in the state. The issue is that some people decided that education is not considered education in their minds. 

[Ver hut gazugt]

"The state" in this case is a group of people with some sort of expertise to work in the field of education.  If you disagree with the standards they set, you can let them know in writing, protests, social media, etc, and try to convince them to change the standards.  Just like you'd protest if you disagreed with the standards set for public health, driving, gun-carrying, etc.  You wouldn't want to eliminate the state's ability to set those regulations, just because you happen to disagree with some of them. 

You mean like these experts

https://nypost.com/2021/05/22/doe-treats-nyc-students-to-virtual-drag-queen-story-hour/amp/

[drosenberg88429]

Society has decided to NOT treat education as a commodity that only some are abile to attain, but rather to ensure that all children have the benefit of receiving at least some education.

Going from availing everyone of a commodity or program to mandating utilization or participation in said commodity or program is a wide leap.

[drosenberg88429]

As always, btw, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, you are one of the most enjoyable contrarian opinion posters to engage with. Your posts are always well researched, thought it, structured, and intelligent, and you do not devolve to personal or ad hominem attacks even when the are deep conceptual disagreements.

[biobook]

1) IINM, one of the aspects of these regulations is that anyone can lodge a complaint, not necessarily the BOE, a parent or a student. Anyone.

And the Agudah is saying that anyone can lodge a comment to argue against these standards.  A parent.  A graduate.  A concerned citizen.  Anyone.

2) I have the right to be as unhealthy as I want or drive any vehicle any way on my ranch. I can't when it affects you.

Perhaps you could educate your children however you want if your children were going to remain on your ranch and be self-sufficient and not require government funding.  But not if their education or lack of it can affect others or require others to support them. .

If you want to so drastically curtail the rights of so many thousands of religious citizens,

I don't think it's drastic.  Many thousands of religious citizens passed the NYS regents and don't consider themselves to have been harmed by their education.

And the numerous hair raising stories of CPS taking children away from parents based on no evidence at all

No idea what this refers to.

[biobook]

The FDA is absolutely fabulous invention to ensure we don't die from bacteria, viruses and whatnot contaminating our food. Yet they just cause a potentially deadly shortage of baby formula. You win some you lose some I guess?

Like every agency, the FDA has its problems.  But I don't believe that Dr. RR has provided a convincing argument that they are at fault.

[aygart]

Many thousands of religious citizens passed the NYS regents and don't consider themselves to have been harmed by their education.

Again, this tells us nothing about what can happen if they can enforce regents even if their content is changed.

[biobook]

Okay, so if the will of the people is to teach that men should be pregnant this should be enforced? I am not understanding how you feel we can accept them become decision makers and then pick and choose which decisions to accept. How will that work? Now they can decide that it is important to teach triginometry to have a functioning society, but tomorrow they can decide that gender fluidity must be taught.

You're nit-picking at minor details that don't even exist. 
This is how it works:  NYS says it's important to teach biology, with an outline of a general curriculum.
Yeshiva tells its students: You'll study biology, but we're not going to cover this chapter on evolution, which makes up 5% of the curriculum.  So the maximum you'll get on the Biology Regents will probably be 95%.  Oh well.

[aygart]

You're nit-picking at minor details that don't even exist. 
This is how it works:  NYS says it's important to teach biology, with an outline of a general curriculum.
Yeshiva tells its students: You'll study biology, but we're not going to cover this chapter on evolution, which makes up 5% of the curriculum.  So the maximum you'll get on the Biology Regents will probably be 95%.  Oh well.

It is about giving over the authority to force them to exist.

[Yehuda57]

And the Agudah is saying that anyone can lodge a comment to argue against these standards.  A parent.  A graduate.  A concerned citizen.  Anyone.Perhaps you could educate your children however you want if your children were going to remain on your ranch and be self-sufficient and not require government funding.  But not if their education or lack of it can affect others or require others to support them. .I don't think it's drastic.  Many thousands of religious citizens passed the NYS regents and don't consider themselves to have been harmed by their education.
No idea what this refers to.

And the Agudah is saying that anyone can lodge a comment to argue against these standards.  A parent.  A graduate.  A concerned citizen.  Anyone.

Having anyone sign a petition is a far cry from having a government agency with the power of arrest taking action against a school or parents. This is a pretty disingenuous argument that is beneath you.

Perhaps you could educate your children however you want if your children were going to remain on your ranch and be self-sufficient and not require government funding.  But not if their education or lack of it can affect others or require others to support them.

So if I don't ever sign up for any sort of welfare I'm good? Besides, it has been proven time and again that graduates of the yeshiva system do not place a higher than average drain on social and welfare services. Even in some places that have a high number of people on welfare, the overall contributions from the community far outweigh those of comparable non-Jewish cities, and the accompanying social and welfare costs are virtually zero, compare the very high costs of poverty-stricken areas which require more policing, medical, and a host of other services.

Many thousands of religious citizens passed the NYS regents and don't consider themselves to have been harmed by their education.

My daughter is doing Regents, but we chose that school. Forcing me into it would very much be a drastic imposition. Proof that it drastically curtailing our rights are the tens of thousands of signatures on the numerous community-wide petitions.

No idea what this refers to.

GIYF. There have been many stories publicized in MSM and beyond about children who were taken away from their parents because of allegations of abuse and the like, when there was not a shred of evidence the child was abused. It happened to a frum family in Texas a short while ago, but these stories have been published by people that run the gamut of political and religious affiliation.

[gozalim]

You're nit-picking at minor details that don't even exist. 
This is how it works:  NYS says it's important to teach biology, with an outline of a general curriculum.
Yeshiva tells its students: You'll study biology, but we're not going to cover this chapter on evolution, which makes up 5% of the curriculum.  So the maximum you'll get on the Biology Regents will probably be 95%.  Oh well.

you're describing the oversight already in place, which presumably covers the basics you're worried about.
what's being proposed here is a drastic expansion of that. going from FDA to CPS++. and virtually giving AOC a seat at the AIPAC table