AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY

[biobook]

Which part worked? That students who took the regents have better critical thinking skills in real life or that there were never issues with the state regulated curriculum?

It worked, in that students who studied a state-regulated curriculum and passed the NYS regents were not impeded from attaining a religious education.  Even becoming rabbanim, roshei yeshiva and the like.  Even working at Agudah.  It is not true that we can't "be mechanech our children according to our mesorah" if they learn secular subjects.

[skyguy918]

You're nit-picking at minor details that don't even exist. 
This is how it works:  NYS says it's important to teach biology, with an outline of a general curriculum.
Yeshiva tells its students: You'll study biology, but we're not going to cover this chapter on evolution, which makes up 5% of the curriculum.  So the maximum you'll get on the Biology Regents will probably be 95%.  Oh well.

You're showing an uncharacteristic naivete here - or maybe just a lack of knowledge about how the educational system works and what's being proposed by NYS here.

[yelped]

It worked, in that students who studied a state-regulated curriculum and passed the NYS regents were not impeded from attaining a religious education.  Even becoming rabbanim, roshei yeshiva and the like.  Even working at Agudah.  It is not true that we can't "be mechanech our children according to our mesorah" if they learn secular subjects.

No one here is arguing against studying "secular" subjects (what is that anyways?). We are arguing against the government being granted the power to put parents in jail based on a complaint from a random guy with a vendetta because they seemed the curriculum not sufficiently equivalent to the garbage they teach.

No school currently, including Ramaz etc would meet the standard they propose.

[aygart]

It worked, in that students who studied a state-regulated curriculum and passed the NYS regents were not impeded from attaining a religious education.  Even becoming rabbanim, roshei yeshiva and the like.  Even working at Agudah.  It is not true that we can't "be mechanech our children according to our mesorah" if they learn secular subjects.

I am confused about how you are conflating teaching secular subjects with authority to force a curriculum of their choosing.

[Yehuda57]

But I don't believe that Dr. RR has provided a convincing argument that they are at fault.

There were news articles about this as well, not just his video. He is far from a lone voice on the topic. And issues at the FDA are far from a new phenomenon that started with formula. Without getting sidetracked, I'd love for you to rebut his video in the other thread if you found his argument unconvincing.

Like every agency, the FDA has its problems. 

Right. So let's give this agency (the BOE), with "its problems" broad powers that can lead to parents' arrest.

If I may preempt your argument that no one is going to get arrested, my grandparents came mighty close to being arrested in the '50s for truancy for sending my father to a school in Crown Heights which didn't meet "minimum standards". My father turned out just fine, and far from being a burden on society, there are literally thousands of people who will attest to his positive impact on their lives.

[VacationLover]

It worked, in that students who studied a state-regulated curriculum and passed the NYS regents were not impeded from attaining a religious education.  Even becoming rabbanim, roshei yeshiva and the like.  Even working at Agudah.  It is not true that we can't "be mechanech our children according to our mesorah" if they learn secular subjects.

AYLOR

[biobook]

No this has not been tried. The curriculum was kept to voluntarily. The school has the ability to decide they are no longer offering regents biology classes if biology suddenly starts to include things it did not until now. You are advocating taking this choice away from them.

Biology is what biology is.  But individual teachers are usually not able to cover the entire curriculum or textbook anyway, and can easily choose to not cover a particular topic.  The BOE is not going to enter every classroom and look over the shoulder of every teacher to ensure that they cover every item on the curriculum. 

[aygart]

Biology is what biology is.  But individual teachers are usually not able to cover the entire curriculum or textbook anyway, and can easily choose to not cover a particular topic.  The BOE is not going to enter every classroom and look over the shoulder of every teacher to ensure that they cover every item on the curriculum. 

It all depends on what they consider important to them and who edges them on to enforce it. I fully expect Moster and his ilk to take advantage of any power given to undermine Yiddishkeit to the best of their abilities and to force as much objectionable content as they possibly can.

[Ver hut gazugt]

Biology is what biology is.  But individual teachers are usually not able to cover the entire curriculum or textbook anyway, and can easily choose to not cover a particular topic.  The BOE is not going to enter every classroom and look over the shoulder of every teacher to ensure that they cover every item on the curriculum.

but yaffed will….
I still don’t understand your underlining argument in favor of secular studies. How do you define critical thinking, and which parts do you feel are missing ?

[biobook]

By the time anyone writes letters or protests those standards are already there and if they consider the request to not be forced to teach that men can be pregnant (just an example) to be bigoted then why would they agree to that?

You're rejecting a requirement to learn biology because you suspect that MAYBE on one day of the year, in one class, the teacher might explain that men can become pregnant.  The standards are not given in that sort of detail, and there's no reason to expect that they will in the future.

[gozalim]

You're rejecting a requirement to learn biology because you suspect that MAYBE on one day of the year, in one class, the teacher might explain that men can become pregnant.  The standards are not given in that sort of detail, and there's no reason to expect that they will in the future.

Abby Stein is on Yaffed. not maybe

[aygart]

You're rejecting a requirement to learn biology because you suspect that MAYBE on one day of the year, in one class, the teacher might explain that men can become pregnant.  The standards are not given in that sort of detail, and there's no reason to expect that they will in the future.

No I am rejecting allowing those with a value system contrary to ours having the authority to impose what they wish.

[biobook]

Besides, it has been proven time and again that graduates of the yeshiva system do not place a higher than average drain on social and welfare services.

CMIIW, but my understanding is that most graduates of the yeshiva system have had a secular education that would meet most of the standards currently proposed.  There are a small minority of yeshivas that do not provide a secular education to boys.  Has anyone studied how much those graduates use social and welfare services?

Proof that it drastically curtailing our rights are the tens of thousands of signatures on the numerous community-wide petitions.

A signature takes a few seconds and not much thought.  And some of the yeshiva sites included names of the signees, which might put pressure on people to sign.  The Agudah site, which has a place for sending an email to the BOE, includes the agudah itself as a cc on that letter.  I'm really curious about how many people take the time to actually write their own letters. 

[biobook]

You're showing an uncharacteristic naivete here - or maybe just a lack of knowledge about how the educational system works and what's being proposed by NYS here.

I'm just responding to what sounds like fear-mongering on the Agudah site.  What am I missing?

[aygart]

CMIIW, but my understanding is that most graduates of the yeshiva system have had a secular education that would meet most of the standards currently proposed. 

Most?

[biobook]

No one here is arguing against studying "secular" subjects (what is that anyways?).

But some yeshivas are.  (math, science, reading, history, etc, beyond 8th grade level)

We are arguing against the government being granted the power to put parents in jail based on a complaint from a random guy with a vendetta because they seemed the curriculum not sufficiently equivalent to the garbage they teach.

This doesn't seem like a realistic fear.  For one thing, there aren't enough jail cells for every yeshiva parent.  And I haven't seen any evidence that police come to arrest parents based on "random guys with a vendetta".

[aygart]

I'm just responding to what sounds like fear-mongering on the Agudah site.  What am I missing?

I won't discount the possibility that they used exaggerated hyperbole.

[biobook]

Most?

That was my understanding from the discussions around the previous time this issue was in the news.  That most NYS yeshivas argued that they were, in fact, covering most of the required curriculum. Is that incorrect?

[biobook]

No school currently, including Ramaz etc would meet the standard they propose.

What is Ramaz missing?

[aygart]

That was my understanding from the discussions around the previous time this issue was in the news.  That most NYS yeshivas argued that they were, in fact, covering most of the required curriculum. Is that incorrect?

But what about the rest? What about potential changes?