AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY

[aygart]

But some yeshivas are.  (math, science, reading, history, etc, beyond 8th grade level)
This doesn't seem like a realistic fear.  For one thing, there aren't enough jail cells for every yeshiva parent.  And I haven't seen any evidence that police come to arrest parents based on "random guys with a vendetta".

In such cases, the prosecutors typically find some "more egregious offenders" to make an example of.

[biobook]

If I may preempt your argument that no one is going to get arrested, my grandparents came mighty close to being arrested in the '50s for truancy for sending my father to a school in Crown Heights which didn't meet "minimum standards". My father turned out just fine, and far from being a burden on society, there are literally thousands of people who will attest to his positive impact on their lives.

Please!  The rest of the story!  Who, what, why?

[biobook]

Abby Stein is on Yaffed. not maybe

I'm not familiar with her.  Does she teach about male pregnancy?

[Ver hut gazugt]

But some yeshivas are.  (math, science, reading, history, etc, beyond 8th grade level)
This doesn't seem like a realistic fear.  For one thing, there aren't enough jail cells for every yeshiva parent.  And I haven't seen any evidence that police come to arrest parents based on "random guys with a vendetta".

I come from a school that did not teach secular subject’s and send my kids to the same type of school. I have yet to hear a good reason to change path’s.

And the graduates are not more prone to use public benefits.

[ExGingi]

Then you wonder why they call our community leeches on society. Taking the position that he takes to the end (and unless I am misreading it he is taking the position that we do not need ANY secular studies at all in yeshivos) we are setting up generations of chasidim for failure and reliance on an increasingly hostile government. If we want Wisconsin v Yoder results we better be ready to move our communities to rural America, work the land, etc. You cant grow Chasidish communities in metropolitan areas and not teach any secular studies. It's not realistic.

-100000 (probably more than that, but I guess that is the number of people that graduated Yeshivos in NY without any secular studies).

My boys went (and go) to yeshivos where there are no secular studies whatsoever. My girls go to a school that teaches no secular studies in elementary school, very minimal in high school, and doesn't provide a high school diploma.

Whoever needs to have a high school diploma equivalent, just goes for a GED. There's nothing to it. And in Yeshiva they can get a BA in Rabbinical Studies.

It is a crime to waste time on secular studies for most yidden (until and unless needed).

[biobook]

I come from a school that did not teach secular subject’s and send my kids to the same type of school. I have yet to hear a good reason to change path’s.

And the graduates are not more prone to use public benefits.

I wouldn't want to draw conclusions based on a single person.  The question is how graduates of such schools fare in general.  Here's another parent who sent his kids to the same type of school, that didn't teach secular subjects:

https://crownheights.info/op-ed/773243/op-ed-yeshiva-education-its-time-to-be-honest/

But as adults, his sons felt that their yeshiva education was lacking.
https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/leaving-lubavitch-2/
https://forward.com/community/458230/my-father-had-an-md-from-harvard-how-could-he-deprive-me-of-an-education/

[Ver hut gazugt]

I wouldn't want to draw conclusions based on a single person.  The question is how graduates of such schools fare in general.  Here's another parent who sent his kids to the same type of school, that didn't teach secular subjects:
But as adults, his sons felt that their yeshiva education was lacking.
https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/leaving-lubavitch-2/
https://forward.com/community/458230/my-father-had-an-md-from-harvard-how-could-he-deprive-me-of-an-education/

I was referring to my grade ( still limited…).
The both articles are actually about one of the men from yaffed.
His story is very complicated And Secular subjects is really just an after thought. Side note he did get a phd.

Keep in mind this is one case out of thousands.

[biobook]

I'm reading the articles linked to the Aguda site, one of which includes this paragraph. Why would adding these topics to the yeshiva curriculum be a problem?

"The proposed regulations also require nonpublic schools to provide instruction in New York State history; instruction in health education regarding alcohol, drugs, and tobacco abuse; instruction in highway safety and traffic regulation; instruction in fire drills and in fire and arson prevention; and instruction in hands-only cardiopulmonary resuscitation and the use of an automated external defibrillator."

https://www.lohud.com/story/opinion/2022/03/18/ny-regents-plans-nonpublic-schools-terrible/7088892001/

[AsherO]

But as adults, his sons felt that their yeshiva education was lacking.
https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/leaving-lubavitch-2/
https://forward.com/community/458230/my-father-had-an-md-from-harvard-how-could-he-deprive-me-of-an-education/

Despite the article’s title the father is far from being honest, proof is he doesn’t tell the story of his sons’ in the article because it doesn’t fit the message he’s trying to convey. I don’t want to say more so it isn’t LH, but even his on-the-derech children who got no formal secular education are quite bright, worldly, and articulate, and I’m sure they won’t mooch on public benefits because of their lack of secular education.

[Moshe123]

You can choose to have the modox hashkafa. Fine.

We don't want government meddling in our mosdos. We built beautiful frum generations like this. Ruchniyus definitely the priority.

[gozalim]

@biobook is

showing an uncharacteristic naivete here - or maybe just a lack of knowledge about how the educational system works and what's being proposed by NYS here.

and even more uncharacteristic insistence

[biobook]

Despite the article’s title the father is far from being honest, proof is he doesn’t tell the story of his sons’ in the article because it doesn’t fit the message he’s trying to convey. I don’t want to say more so it isn’t LH, but even his on-the-derech children who got no formal secular education are quite bright, worldly, and articulate, and I’m sure they won’t mooch on public benefits because of their lack of secular education.

I can sense that there's much going on between the lines.  And that this must be an unusually brilliant family, if someone can start from no secular education yet write as fluently as they do. 
But the articles indicate that at least some adults who graduated from no-secular-studies yeshivas are dissatisfied with their education.  How common is this?

[VacationLover]

The Chasam Sofer was fighting reform groups even for the slightest secular changes, because once you give them a key to change or reform anything, they will add more changes and reforms.

@biobook, you appear to have the prospective of MO Rabbis, which is perfectly fine as @Moshe123 mentioned.

In MO communities they already teach secular studies, and in more strict communities the parents are against it, if the request for change comes from parents/ Rabbis, there will be changes. However, if the government is trying to change with the backing of community drop outs who are no longer orthodox, the community will oppose any change (unless there is clear good intentions - which there is not in this case)

[biobook]

We don't want government meddling in our mosdos. We built beautiful frum generations like this. Ruchniyus definitely the priority.

We don't want government meddling in our shuls.  But when we build them, we adhere to government-provided building codes so that the plumbing doesn't leak, the electricity doesn't short circuit, and the building doesn't collapse.  This doesn't detract from the ruchniyus of the shul.

Having children learn English and science and math shouldn't be seen as detracting from their ruchniyus.

[aygart]

You cant grow Chasidish communities in metropolitan areas and not teach any secular studies. It's not realistic.

Go convince that to the millionaires in Lakewood.

[Moshe123]

We don't want government meddling in our shuls.  But when we build them, we adhere to government-provided building codes so that the plumbing doesn't leak, the electricity doesn't short circuit, and the building doesn't collapse.  This doesn't detract from the ruchniyus of the shul.

Having children learn English and science and math shouldn't be seen as detracting from their ruchniyus.

You're comparing building codes to curriculum.

Gimme a break.

Next.

[biobook]

You're comparing building codes to curriculum.

You're equating learning biology to lacking ruchniyus.  Why are they incompatible?

[ExGingi]

You're equating learning biology to lacking ruchniyus.  Why are they incompatible?

What percentage of the population has any use for learning biology?

[biobook]

What percentage of the population has any use for learning biology?

I would say 100%.  What do you think?

[ExGingi]

I would say 100%.  What do you think?

A fraction of 1%.

As a matter of fact, I think plumbing and electricity are by far more useful and probably not really taught much (other than possibly a bit in physics - I have no clue how practical whatever knowledge is taught there is, never took any classes in physics).